Jane Hale/s

[kasden]

Yes Janey..those Harpers are my ancestors....I have info on them.
 Rhoda married Robert Findley in 1873..having immigrated here the same year aged approx 18...born 1855.
Its another whole mystery just why the Harpers used the name Orpwood....however they did use it and thats the maiden name that Rhoda used when she married..bizarre isn't it?...as to the connection to the Findley family...well thats another huge stumbling block because I can't locate parents for Robert Findley anywhere in the U.K but he was of Scottish extraction ..i.e he claimed to have been born in Scotland,and the newspaper report on his sudden death in Parramatta N.S.W in 1888 also gives the information that he was a Scots man..but once again nothing concrete ( like a birth certificate)to support this claim.
I think that he was several years older than Rhoda though and on all his childrens birth certificates he was ,shall we say flexible, with his age..best guestimation is that he may have been born between 1840-ish and 1850-ish....a nearly impossible task locating his family it seems.

[JaneyCanuck]

Everybody who existed, existed. It took me some years to figure out who my own gr-grfather was (starting with a name that turned out to be totally fake), but eventualy, I did! (He married an Essex girl, my gr-grmother, which is why I'm poking about in Essex here.)

The thing is that things like the info about Rhoda's family -- yes, you know it, but we don't. And for us to be able to help, starting out with a handicap doesn't make any sense  -- we're looking for more information than you have, but haven't even got the known information, to work with.

Ya never know what little tidbit of information could turn out to be key, or even just useful. So whatever you have, you should give. For instance, don't give us guesstimates of his date of birth: give us the ages he stated on various documents.

When did he emigrate, do you know?

And once again ... what is your feeling about those census households? Have you looked at them before? How about getting the Jane Fenley death certificate?

It's gone 11 pm here in central Canada and I'm hungry, and all the Brits are abed, so you will be on your own for a while now.

[JaneyCanuck]

In case you don't have it, Edmund Orpwood (Edmund, Edward, Edwin were essentially interchangeable over a person's life in many cases) married Rhoda King, Mar Q 1845, Henley, Oxfordshire. A few Orpwood children's births are there too; Rhoda is Harper, June Q 1855.

[kasden]

Thanks Janey for your help with this..checking all Robert Findleys childrens birth certificates who were all born here in Australia gives me the following.
His 1st Child...Elizabeth Lilian was born 4th June 1875 and Roberts age is given as 28..and says he was born in Dundee Forfarshire Scotland.*making his d.o.b about 1847
2nd child...Eleanor was born 23rd May 1877...Robert is 34 and born in Scotland d.o.b abt 1843.
3rd child...Albert Ernest was born 14th April 1878 and now Robert is 38 years old !(apparently gaining a few years from Eleanors birth date just a year prior) d.o.b abt 1840.
4th Child.... Ernest Arthur was born 25th January 1880 and Robert is still 38 years old.d.o.b 1840?
5th child....Edmund Robert was born 12th April 1882...and Robert is still 38 years old !!d.o.b 1840 ?
6th Child ...Florence May was born 7th May 1884 and now Robert is 39 ! d.o.b now 1845
Robert and Florence Rhoda married on the 31st of December 1873 and this certificate gives his age as 27 years,making his year of birth about 1846.
 Robert died on the 17th February 1888 his death certificate states that he is 47 years old (making his year of birth about 1841)...newspaper reports of his death say that he is 41 years old,the informant possibley being his widow..(this makes his year of birth 1847) thats why I am guestimating an 1840-ish 1850-ish time frame for his real date of birth.
The only consistency is that on all certificates Scotland is his birth place...trouble is that Ive had 2 different professional researchers look for me and they could find nothing on his birth or on his parents marriage there..or  other siblings ect....I don't know when he emigrated here..can't find him on any passenger lists.I have not been able to access the census households but getting Jane Fenleys death certificate is a good idea.
Sleep well in Canada and much appreciation for your advice

[JaneyCanuck]

Yeesh.

Is Rhoda's age given on the children's birth certificates, and is it more or less consistent with an 1855 DOB?

It would be interesting to know whether hers varies as much as his (I imagine it doesn't), and if it does vary, in which directions (including when she died).

I suspect that with him being a good deal older than her, there was some attempt to minimize his age. If he did give his age accurately when they married, he was a good 9 years older than her.

Also, if it was Rhoda doing the registrations (and as you said, giving the age to the newspaper when he died), she may have been the one doing that.

I would tend to go with the earlier possible DOB, at that is what he gave on the earliest records (the later the record, the more likely the inaccuracy, in my experience), and what his death record says.

Now ... the Navestock place of birth, and name Jane Hale/s -- they come from his marriage or death certificate?

Because that seems to be the only thing that makes a connection to Essex, if I'm following. Without that, everything looks pretty Scottish?

... Not that people don't tell total porkies about where they were from. I recently tracked down the gr-grdaughter of the sister of that weird gr-grfather of mine. The sister had married a wealthy young man born in Wales whose family was from Scotland two generations earlier. Once said young man went bankrupt, he changed his name to a variant of the family's original Scottish surname, and proceeded to tell the world that he and his children were born there (the children were born in Berkshire and Cheshire). Apparently the children believed him, as the daughter gave that as her birthplace in 1901, and the son, who settled in South Africa, told the family quite a wonderful tale all about being from Scotland. So you never know -- your man might in fact have had a Scottish father, but been Essex born and bred himself.

[JaneyCanuck]

Just for interest, there is in fact a Robert Findlay in Arbroath, Angus, Scotland, in 1841. He is an ag lab, approx 30 years old (rounded-down census age) and married to Elizabeth, also 30.

I can't identify a corresponding Robert in 1851 in Scotland.

(Fortunately, the one in 1851 in Logie Part, Angus, aged 42, is accounted for in 1841 - although having an ancestor with the occupation "Cailrplonsh Wirghs Alarter Emp 6 Men 1wo" would have been rather fun. In 1841, the occupation  was "Wright" ...)

I wonder whether that 1841 Robert could be yours?

[kasden]

Rhoda's ages on all the certificates is consistant with her birth year of 1855...she out lived Robert by many years dying from""senility"in her mid 80s after having raised her children on her own..she never re-married....I too felt that Robert may have been at least 9 years older than her and that he likely started with close to the correct ages on his marriage and 1st childs certificate but later on became more ,shall we say élastic'with his true age.
I suspect that his father was indeed born in Forfarshire Scotland..he was mentioned on Robert Jnrs marriage certificate as a 'sailor'..so could well have been residing in England between trips but where Robert was born ...Jane Hale/s could have been Scottish/English or Calathumpian !! for all I know..trouble is I am beginning to think that Robert was nothing if not ïmaginative"...I do know that he was a drinking man and a bit of a bar room brawler and that he and Rhoda were living apart at the time of his death according to the newspaper item covering it she stated that the reason for this was "his terrible addiction to the drink"...this most likely was also the reason for his families suggestion that he might been happier in the Antipodes way back then.He is most certainly colourful and maddeningly mysterious.!

[JaneyCanuck]

I am afraid this makes me crazy.  

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,552873.0.html

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,623672.0.html

and I gather there may be more? In that last, you said you had asked before.

The duplication was pointed out in that last thread 10 days before this one was started ... The idea is, of course, not to keep duplicating. If you think expertise from a different region could be helpful, please at least link to all the previous threads.

Helping in a seemingly doomed search can be fun, but not when different information is offered in different places, and multiple people end up doing the same searches.