John Henry BERYMAN d 12/12/1912 at Quorn SA

[Abygail]

Hello everyone,
I'm trying to work my way through the tree of this man for a cousin of mine.   It really is a tangled web of half truths at the very best.   I haven't invested in registration records yet because at present I feel that would be a waste of money.    Working from ancestry, digger records, Australian vital records and Trove I am fairly sure of the following;
John Henry Berryman died at Quorn SA age 57ys - his widow was Sarah Ann Partridge (SA Digger and Trove)
They in turn wed at PM Manse Adelaide 26/05/1892 the groom was 31ys, a widow, his father Henry Berryman and her father was James C(harles) Partridge. (SA Digger)
I haven't been able to locate children for this marriage (John and Sarah) and I haven't been able to locate anything for his previous marriage, IE name of wife from first marriage or children from same.

In 1914 Sarah Ann Berryman nee Partridge married a Joseph Henry Smith, and this is where details are very murky.   (SA Digger)   There was a son born allegedly 1907 and raised as Smith's son but haven't been able to find a birth record for him and unfortunately his death cert is a fabric of misinformation as well.
I seriously doubt that Smith was his father anyway.   The timing is wrong and Smith was listed as single (I know he may have been responsible for a nephew or bastard son but why hide the details?)
I have located (on ancestry) a marriage for Grace Edith Berryman to Bertie Mcinnes 11/01/1910 at the Res of John Berryman Quorn SA.   This ties her back to the John Berryman I'm working on.     I haven't found anything further for her in regard to births.   I have a possible record (ancestry) for her death 24 Aug 1964 in SA.  Nothing further as birth records stop at 1906 on SA Digger.

The following I had now eliminated from my research
I have found records for a John Berriman and Selina Clements, they wed 29/09/1886. 
Grooms father - John Berryman and brides father- James W Clements.  (SA Digger)
I have located a large number of children from this marriage up to 1908, which suggests that these are a separate couple.  (SA Digger and NSW BMD indexes on-line)   Either that or he kept using his first wives name when registering the children.   7 in SA from 1886 - 1897 and 5 in Broken Hill from 1899 - 1909.    In theory this would give him time to return to Quorn IF it is the same man,   from the birth places it appears he was a miner.
the records of births recorded as John Berriman and Selina Clements
Samuel Henry b 1886 at Cross Roads SA
Horace           b 1888 at Wallaroo Mines
Ethel             b 1889 at Wallaroo Mines SA
William John   b 1891 at Jerusalem SA
Edith May      b 1892 at Wallaroo Mines SA
Fred             b 1894 at Wallaroo Mines SA
Beatrice        b 1897 at Wallaroo Mines SA
Irene            b 1899 at Broken Hill NSW
Pearl             b 1900 at Broken Hill NSW
Florence        b 1903 at Broken Hill NSW
Olive             b 1904 at Broken Hill NSW
Richard         b 1909 at Broken Hills NSW
I'm quiet certain this is a totally fifferent family.

In the process of working through records for both spelling of Berryman / Berriman I noted that parents names varied from using only one first name to the use of both first names.   Why is beyond me.

What I'm hoping for is that there is a descendant from John Berryman and Sarah Ann Partridge that is willing and able to shed some information into who the real parents of my cousins father were.
Aby

[cando]

Bit late for me and there is quite a bit of info to work through.

You have mentioned marriage records of two different people - ages are not always accurate on marriage and death records.

John Henry BERRIMAN c1861 with father Johnand
John Henry BERRYMAN born c1863 with father Henry

Death
BERRIMAN John Henry
6 Jun 1931  67 years  Status Married  No relative noted
Residence Semaphore  Death Place Semaphore  PtA  529/27

Advertiser 6 Jun 1931
BERRIMAN — On June 6, at his late residence, 15 South terrace. Semaphore, John Henry, dearly beloved husband of Selina Berriman. Aged 67 years.

Death
BERRYMAN John Henry
12 Dec 1912  57 years  Status Married  Relative not recorded
Residence Quorn  Death Place Quorn  Fro 370/383

Advertiser 25 Aug 1922
UNCLAIMED ESTATES.
The list of unclaimed balances in estates under the charge of the Public Trustee on June 30 last includes:-John Henry Berryman, engine driver of Quorn, died in 1912, £213

Birth in 1907 but who is Mary Ellen BOYD BERRYMAN?

BERRYMAN Charles Shannon Franklin
26 May 1907
Father unrecorded   Mother Mary Ellen BOYD BERRYMAN
At Cleve  Fli 787/336

I have located (on ancestry) a marriage for Grace Edith Berryman to Bertie Mcinnes 11/01/1910 at the Res of John Berryman Quorn SA.   This ties her back to the John Berryman I'm working on.     I haven't found anything further for her in regard to births. 

Birth
BERRYMAN Laurel Prudence Jane
30 Sep 1909
Father [unrecorded]  Mother Grace Edith BERRYMAN
At Quorn  Fro 829/133

and then the marriage

Marriage
McINNES  Bertie  21 years Status Single  Father Donald McINNES
BERRYMAN Grace Edith  19 years  Status Single  Father John BERRYMAN
1 Jan 1910
At the residence of John Berryman, Quorn   Fro 242/8

Finding it hard to concentrate...bedtime for me

Cheers
Cando

[cando]

Digger - South Australian Deaths, Registrations 1916 to 1972


Query
-----
Surname              :            mcinnes (133 matches)
Given Names          :            edith grace (29 matches)

Total matching records: 1
--------------------

I have located (on ancestry) a marriage for Grace Edith Berryman to Bertie Mcinnes 11/01/1910 at the Res of John Berryman Quorn SA.   This ties her back to the John Berryman I'm working on.     I haven't found anything further for her in regard to births.   I have a possible record (ancestry) for her death 24 Aug 1964 in SA.  Nothing further as birth records stop at 1906 on SA Digger.

Birth information is available to 1928 in South Australia.

This Grace was not legally Grace Edith O'DONOGHUE as you can see by the death registration.

Death
McINNES Grace Edith
24 Aug 1964  72 years  Status Widow  Relative  Thomas O'DONOGHUE [Deceased Husband]
Residence Warradale   Death Place Adelaide   Ade HX 982/7817
Cross Reference ODONOGHUE Grace Edith

ODONOGHUE Grace Edith
24 Aug 1964  72 years  Status Widow  Relative Thomas ODONOGHUE [Deceased Husband]
Residence Warradale  Death Place Adelaide  Ade HX 982/7817
Cross Reference McINNES Grace Edith

In 1914 Sarah Ann Berryman nee Partridge married a Joseph Henry Smith, and this is where details are very murky.   (SA Digger)   There was a son born allegedly 1907 and raised as Smith's son but haven't been able to find a birth record for him and unfortunately his death cert is a fabric of misinformation as well.
I seriously doubt that Smith was his father anyway.   The timing is wrong and Smith was listed as single (I know he may have been responsible for a nephew or bastard son but why hide the details?)

Little bit difficult to help unless you can give the name of the son.

Marriage
SMITH Joseph Henry 38 years  Status Single  Father John Charles SMITH
BERRYMAN Sarah Ann 40 years  Status Widow  Father James Charles Partridge BERRYMAN
4 Nov 1914
At the Manse, Port Augusta    Fro 260/343

If Joseph Henry SMITH had not married prior to the 1914 marriage, legally he would be single no matter how many children he had fathered.

Neither John Henry BERRYMAN or Joseph Henry SMITH enrolled to vote in the 1903 election.
_______________________________________________________________________________

This is a different family and the spelling of the surname BERRIMAN is consistent in both the SA and NSW indexes including the husband's death notice.

BERRIMAN John Henry 22 years Status Single  Father John BERRIMAN
CLEMENTS Selina  21  Status Single  Father James William CLEMENTS
26 Sep 1885
At the residence of James Rowe, Millswood   Ade144/1143

This is obviously not your family of interest.

_______________________________________________________________________________


You state that Sarah Ann PARTRIDGE had a child in 1907 and it is not registered. Have you considered that she may have separated from John Henry BERRYMAN?  Don't you find it rather odd that a wife would not know there was money in an estate ?

A transcription of John's death certificate would give you the following information in 1912 ie if known to the informant.

    Date and Place of Death
    Name
    Sex
    Age
    Occupation
    Usual Residence
    Birthplace
    Length of Residence in Commonwealth
    Age at Marriage
    Number of Issue Living and Deceased
    Cause of Death
    Place of Death
    Informant

Transcriptions are available from SA Genealogy and http://www.jaunay.com/transcription.html
Considerably cheaper than a certified certificate and the information is the same.

Cando

[Abygail]

Thank you Cando,
I knew it needed fresh eyes on the problem.   With the additional information re John and Selina Berriman I can confidently dismiss them as a possible connection.  Thank you.
I also think you may have provided the parent of the person (Harold Smith) I have been trying to sort out.  His DoB was given as 26 June 1907.   Out by a month but it is fairly close.   All I need to do it try to forward track him.
I have the following from Trove re John Berryman's death and a Return Thanks insert.

The Advertiser (Adelaide;SA 1889 - 1931 ;Saturday 21 December 1912 page 18
BERRYMAN - On the 12th December at his residence, West Quorn of heart failure John Henry, SAR the beloved husband of Sarah Berryman, in his 57th year.  Thy will be done.

Chronicle (Adelaide SA 1895 - 1954) Saturday 28 December1912 page 33-34
Family Notices
RETURN THANKS
Mrs Berryman of Quorn Wishes to tender her sincere thanks and gratitude to her many friends for letters of sympathy floral tributes and kindness during her recent sad bereavement.

Will work at tracing Mary Ellen Boyd Berryman, if her parents were John Berryman and Sarah Partridge we will have a winner, two daughters for them at any rate.   Slowly, slowly.
Aby

[cando]

No mention of any family ie children etc in either the death notice or return thanks.  Unusual.


Cando

[cando]

BERRYMAN Charles Shannon Franklin
26 May 1907
Father unrecorded   Mother Mary Ellen BOYD BERRYMAN
At Cleve  Fli 787/336

Marriage
FRANKLIN Joseph  32 Status Single  Father Unrecorded
BERRYMAN Mary Ellen 29 years  Status Widow  Father Philip BOYD
28 Jul 1910
At the Res of Rev H W Jew Cleve  Fli 244/212

Not a daughter of John Henry BERRYMAN.

I suggest a transcription of John Henry's death certificate to see if he actually had any children.

There was a home in Fullarton for single mothers. Can't recall the name at the moment.  Perhaps their children were adopted - well not legally as that wasn't available until c1928 or so. There are a couple more possibilities but this is the only birth with father unrecorded on that date.

LANHAM Norman Willie
26 Jun 1907
Father unrecorded   Mother Nellie LANHAM
At Fullarton  Ade 784/41

I haven't the time to follow this child or his mother at the moment.  You need to see some primary records.

What other information do you have about Harold ?SMITH. 

Cando

[cando]

Is this his WW2 service summary or simply a coincidence of the name and dob but born Murray Bridge?

http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=522970


Cando

[Abygail]

Hi Cando,
you have the right one, and I'm about ready to tell my cousin to spend some money and purchase John Berryman's death record that may (fingers crossed) provide answers that aren't forth coming this way.
Everytime I think I have a lead it ends up crashing, I've eliminated all the previous possibilities you suggested.   It has me beat, according to the marriage record between him and Sarah he was a widow, can't find a death record where he was the spouse, can't find any birth records period for either marriage.   Have found 1 marriage record, Grace Bray 1885, 142/137 to John Berriman (Daly), haven't found anything further but its bound to be a dead end as the surname is spelt with an 'i' and not a 'y'.
Maybe he was sterile and unable to have children or just wasn't that way inclined and needed a cheap housekeeper.   But that doesn't really work either as Sarah was about 42 when she remarried, and still no children, or registration of.    I just don't know.
I agree with it being unusual that the estate was left unclaimed, love to know the reason behind that.    Too many questions and the answers aren't forth coming.
Will have a look at the SA archives to see what records there are pertaining to the SAR, took me a while for the penny to drop with that (South Australian Railways).
I haven't had to look in SA for a long time so things have changed in between then and now.
Thanks for your in put just the same.
Aby   

[cando]

Aby I note that you have now modified your initial post....please note the modification as added later, otherwise it makes my following posts look silly.  Why on earth would anyone bother researching if you had already eliminated the family from your research.  You had not eliminated it when I responded with replies#1 and 2.

Following on the information on the WW2 service summary -

Australian Electoral Roll
1931, 1936, 1937
SMITH Joseph Henry  Lake Cullulleraine  Labourer
SMITH Sarah Ann  Lake Cullulleraine  HD

1942
SMITH Harold  Murray Lock 9  Station Hand
SMITH Joseph Henry  Merbein  Labourer
SMITH Sarah Ann  Merbein  HD

1949, 1954
SMITH Harold  Murray Lock 9  Station Hand
SMITH Joseph Henry  Commercial Street  West Merbein  No occupation
SMITH Sarah Ann  Commercial Street  West Merbein  HD

This is certainly a rather a strange death registration with Sarah's maiden name as the deceased mother's maiden name.  Perhaps someone asked 'mother's maiden name' and perhaps a son or daughter responded with their mother's maiden name.  Seen it before.

SMITH Joseph Henry
Father John Charles   Mother Unknown  PARTRIDGE
At Merbein  79 years  1955  Reg#23263

and Harold's

SMITH Harold
Father Smith Joseph Henry  Mother Sarah  PARTRIDGE
At Mildura  78 years  1985  Reg#28886

Has your cousin the above death certificates?  Perhaps he is one of Harold's children ie if he married and had children.  I can't see him with another person living at Murray Lock 9 on the electoral rolls.

The validate the research I think you need a transcription of John Henry BERRYMAN's death to see the number of issue [no names in SA] to his marriage.

Where and when did Sarah die?

Cando