Francis Spencer sen (1820) and Francis Spencer jun (1846), Sutton in Ashfield

[Annechan]

Many thanks, lynnsellers, for the info in your attachment – I have added new bits to my family details.  Sorry about the delay in replying, we’ve been on holiday. 

I will attach the birth and marriage certificates for Francis Spencer b 1846, which I bought thinking he was my great great grandfather, rather than (I think) my great grandfather’s half-brother.

One thing I am doubtful about is the death of Wright Hall [b1825]. I can’t find him in the 1841 census, so the 1829 burial in Sutton given by Larkspur (burial at Sutton on 18-8-1829 of Wright Spencer abode Sutton aged 5) seems to me to be more likely than the event you gave - 1848, Basford registration district. 

Also I think that the “Unknown Spencer, daughter of Francis Spencer Jr and Ellen Matilda Appleyard born on 29 Mar 1869 in Balbriggan” is probably Ellen Spencer who married Henry Hoey (25, writing clerk, of Railway Station House, father Henry Hoey, station master) at St George's, Balbriggan on 29 May 1888; Ellen is 19, living at Skerries St, with father Francis Spencer. [I saw this entry in the marriage register]
Henry and Ellen are living in Dungannon, Tyrone in 1901 census; in Lusk, Dublin in 1911 census.
 
John Hall (?christened 1766 Arnold) married Dorothy; as well as Mary they also had a daughter Ann Hall, christened 26 Nov 1791 in Annesley.  This Ann is a ggg grandmother on my maternal grandmother’s side, whilst Mary Hall is a ggg grandmother on my maternal grandfather’s side – quite a neat coincidence. 

No, we live in the West Midlands, England, not Ireland. We spent a week in Dublin visiting the Representative Church Body Library (for Church of Ireland parish records), Valuation Office, GRO Ireland, various libraries, and a day at Balbriggan, in the hope of sorting out who Wrighthall Spencer’s father was, but just ended up with a different unverified possibility and a dreadful cold! (Did a little bit of tourism too).  I spent the first few years of my life in Sutton in Ashfield, then lived in a village next to Annesley Woodhouse, till my parents moved away from Nottinghamshire; I still have some relatives in the Sutton area.   

Did Eliza Letitia’s family stay in Michigan?  Interesting that Sarah Anne and George also went to America.  I remember my mother talking about the problems caused by the Black and Tans in Balbriggan, which I couldn’t understand as Wrighthall was living in Nottinghamshire by then, but presumably she had been told about Robert, his brother, emigrating to California to get away from the anti-English feeling.   

So, I now have lots of information about the families which I think are part of my family tree, but still nothing to prove that Francis Spencer, baptised in Sutton in 1820, is the father of my great grandfather Wrighthall Spencer. I need the marriage of Francis Spencer to Mary Hardy/Harding, probably Sutton, Nottinghamshire or Ireland, between 1862 and 1866 (or 1876 when the 2 children were baptised), but can’t find one.  It would be great to find deaths for Francis and Mary too.

[larkspur]

Baptism
Sutton in Ashfield
1-2-1824 Wright Hall son of Samuel and Mary Spencer father a FWK.
The only marriages for a Francis Spencer in S in A are the one to Caroline Cassoday and
22-8-1821 To Catherine Milward.
with Children baptised there too
28-6-1837 Ann
20-3-1834 Simeon  buried 24-3-1837 aged 3 years
12-11-1827 William
27-7-1829 Elizabeth

Baptism Arnold
31-8-1766 John son of John and Mary Hall.

Buried,notes say children of Francis and Catherine Spencer
3-12-1825 Sarah aged 1
10-12-1825 Mary Ann aged 4 years

Marriage Attenborough
22-7-1889 Wrightall Spencer and Elizabeth Turner.

Sorry if I have repeated myself anywhere 

[Annechan]

Thanks, larkspur for that info.

I had looked at the Francis Spencer/Catherine Milward family, though I didn’t know about Sarah and Mary Ann. William appears to have married Elizabeth Wright in 1851; they have a 10 year old son called Wright in the 1881 census, but he is known as Alexander or Alexander Wright at other times, and I don’t think there is a direct connection with my family.

I wonder whether Wright Hall Spencer, 1824-1829, was named after 2 of his grandparents? The only baptism I have found for Samuel Spencer is Samuel born 1795, christened 1812 at Wirksworth, Derbys, mother Hannah, father not given (FamilySearch); this fits with Hopton given as Samuel’s birthplace in the 1851 census.  I don’t have a marriage for the parents of Mary and Ann Hall – could Dorothy’s maiden name have been Wright?

Whatever the reason for Wright Hall’s name, it seems to fit with my guess that Wrighthall born 1866 in Ireland was the son of Francis Spencer born 1820 Sutton, who married/lived with Mary Hardy/Harding after his 1st wife Caroline died in 1862. But I don’t see how I can prove this without a marriage! Francis appears to have stayed in Balbriggan until about 1899, when his name is crossed out of the rate books.  I haven’t found a death, so assume he returned to England, but cannot find him in the 1901 census. Perhaps I will just have to give up.

Incidentally, I did learn during my stay in Ireland that Elizabeth Turner, Wrightall’s future wife, spent some years in Balbriggan with her father, so they probably met there before marrying in Attenborough.   

Thanks again for your help.

[hasta]

Hi Annechan
I remember your Frank Spencer(s) from your thread on the Dublin Board ages ago. At the time I found something but forgot to post it. It is a very LONG SHOT (well a 50:50 really) but since he still hasn't turned up I thought I'd post and see what you think.
www. RootsIreland.ie has 3 Burial records for the name Spencer in Balbriggan COI.
1 is for Robert d 1954 and another for a Francis Spencer - Address Balbriggan - Aged 76 - Died 5 Aug 1895, giving him a birth date of 1819 (I had got the record at the time having spare credit and no use for it myself) BUT... when you try cross check against the Civil Index however it has this
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FT8W-BM2
Frank Spencer - Jul - Sep 1895 - Balrothery, Ireland - Aged 7.
Clearly someone has it wrong here. The name, place and date are all consistent but RootsIreland have him aged 76 and the LDS have him aged 7. Could this be a rare instance where RootsIreland have it right and the LDS have made a mistake ?  Do you have a someone in your research who could be this 7 year old Francis/Frank ? I had a look and I don't see one born in 1888 as per the LDS record, just a FRANCE SARA b. 1888 Belfast.
Could be a total wild goose chase, but I thought I'd throw it out there and see what you think of it.

[Annechan]

Yes, I had wondered about that death.  I got excited when we visited Balbriggan Library at the end of our week in Ireland and were shown a transcript that included:
Francis Spencer; age at death 76; buried at Balrothery on 5th August 1895; address at death Balbriggan.
When I later compared this with Civil Registration records I decided that the age must have been mis-transcribed.  However, I emailed the Vicar of Balbriggan to ask about the whereabouts of registers of baptisms after 1887, marriages in the 1860s and burials.  He managed to get find the registers of baptisms at Balbriggan and burials at Balrothery, and promised to deposit these at the Church Representative Body Library (where I had checked other records) for safe-keeping.  (Couldn’t find any marriages, unfortunately).  He also confirmed that the register entry did give the age at death as 76, so maybe there is an error in the Civil Registration indexes.

Two points against this idea that our Francis died aged 76 in 1895:
1. The Balbriggan transcripts also included this baptism:
Lily Francis Spencer, born 28 Oct 1888, baptised 29 October 1888, parents Joseph and Margret Spencer of Courtlough.  However, I have just found her and her parents in Kinsealy in the 1901 census, so it can’t be her and must now discount this idea.
2, Francis Spencer wasn’t crossed out of the Rate Revision books (at the Valuation Office) until 1899, although there were alterations between 1895 and 1899.  This could just have been inefficient administration though.

On balance, it looks as though it may be worth one of us getting that death certificate.  Do you want to buy a copy, or shall I?

[Annechan]

Got a copy of the 1895 death certificate in the post today, and Francis Spencer's age is given as 77, not 7 as on the GRO index. Francis was a hosier, and the death was notified by his widow Mary. This seems likely to be the Francis baptised in Sutton in Ashfield in 1820.  It fits my theory that he moved to Balbriggan after the death of his 1st wife Caroline in 1862, then had 2 more children with Mary Hardy / Harding, but difficult to actually prove without finding a marriage.
I attach copy of the death certificate, also photo of the house where Francis b1820 lived (small house on corner of Drogheda St/Brick Lane).

[Annechan]

This is the house where Francis Spencer b1846 lived - 2nd from the right hand end of this terrace in Hampton St (sometimes described as Skerries St).

[redpaws]

Whilst undertaking your research have you found any connection to a William Spencer son of Henry Spencer who married Catherine Darcy in Balbriggan 9th November 1872.