Author Topic: St. Andrew's United Reform(ed) Church, Woolwich  (Read 2670 times)

Offline FishMan

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Holiday Smiles
    • View Profile
St. Andrew's United Reform(ed) Church, Woolwich
« on: Thursday 21 March 13 00:39 GMT (UK) »
My great-great-grandfather James Lumber McCallum (lovely unique name for reasearch, but I've no idea why Lumber) appears in two different online baptismal registers with the same date 20 June 1823. His father James was in the Royal Artillery at Woolwich.

On 'The Genealogist' website the record is claimed to be from the Scots Church, Woolwich (it is 3 handwritten lines entered by the local Presbyterian minister John Blythe [PRO RG4/1994]) whereas 'Ancestry' claims it's record is from the register of St. Andrews United Reform Church, Woolwich (it is 4 handwritten lines also entered by the local Presbyterian minister John Blythe).

The surrounding entries also appear in both registers.

Is the more commonly used "Scots Church" simply a colloquial name for the latter? If so, why are there two registers?

Any explanation most welcome?
FISHER (Cheshire, Lancashire, Essex, Australia)
BURNS (Lancashire)
SYMES & SCOTT (Devon, Lancashire)
MCCALLUM (Midlothian, Malta, Kent & Dublin)
GARDINER (Midlothian, Ireland, Malta)
KRUSE (Denmark, Australia)
MCINNES (Argyll, Cheshire, London, Australia)
MCINTOSH (Avoch, Nairn, Australia)
COULL (Banffshire)

LEWIS (Herefordshire, Australia)
COLES (Oxfordshire, Australia)
STUFFINS (Huntingdonshire, Cambridgeshire)
JASPER & JUKES (Worcestershire)
NAPIER (Ireland, Australia)

Offline casalguidi

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,446
    • View Profile
Re: St. Andrew's United Reform(ed) Church, Woolwich
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 21 March 13 23:19 GMT (UK) »
If you look at the Ancestry image then go to image number 1 of that series it says at the beginning of the actual register "Register of Births and Baptisms belonging to the Scots Church, Woolwich .......... ".

See http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/wool_plc.htm for churches in Woolwich.

I would guess that the Scots Church was the forerunner of the Presbyterian Church.  The United Reformed Church of St Andrew was formerly the Presbyterian Church http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-lma4385&cid=0#0

Casalguidi :)
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Chris Doran

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 621
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: St. Andrew's United Reform(ed) Church, Woolwich
« Reply #2 on: Friday 22 March 13 03:27 GMT (UK) »
All (or maybe it was almost all -- I forget the details) Presbyterian Churches in England joined with most Congregational Churches to become the United Reformed Church in 1972, so Ancestry is just using the current name.

Whilst on the subject, a warning: A significant number of Congregational Churches stayed out of the union and continue in various groupings, or totally independent. However, not everybody realises this, so don't assume it or be mislead by others' misassumptions (no, I haven't checked Ancestry's list).
Researching Penge, Anerley, (incuding the Crystal Palace) and neighbouring parts of Beckenham, currently in London (Bromley), formerly Surrey and/or Kent.

Offline FishMan

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Holiday Smiles
    • View Profile
Re: St. Andrew's United Reform(ed) Church, Woolwich
« Reply #3 on: Friday 22 March 13 04:46 GMT (UK) »
Thanks to you both! I'm not 100% convinced about your renaming explanation, but I'll go along. Big mystery is still .... why would there be 2 different registers with the same entries?
FISHER (Cheshire, Lancashire, Essex, Australia)
BURNS (Lancashire)
SYMES & SCOTT (Devon, Lancashire)
MCCALLUM (Midlothian, Malta, Kent & Dublin)
GARDINER (Midlothian, Ireland, Malta)
KRUSE (Denmark, Australia)
MCINNES (Argyll, Cheshire, London, Australia)
MCINTOSH (Avoch, Nairn, Australia)
COULL (Banffshire)

LEWIS (Herefordshire, Australia)
COLES (Oxfordshire, Australia)
STUFFINS (Huntingdonshire, Cambridgeshire)
JASPER & JUKES (Worcestershire)
NAPIER (Ireland, Australia)


Offline casalguidi

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,446
    • View Profile
Re: St. Andrew's United Reform(ed) Church, Woolwich
« Reply #4 on: Friday 22 March 13 12:13 GMT (UK) »
Did they make a duplicate register when the originals were required to be sent in 1837/1857 perhaps?

Casalguidi :)
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Ian W Scott

  • RootsChat Pioneer
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: St. Andrew's United Reform(ed) Church, Woolwich
« Reply #5 on: Friday 21 August 20 14:09 BST (UK) »
I visited with the Presbyterian minister, in Woolwich in 1973 to examine records of the Scots Church of Woolwich and he indicated to me that there were two historically related Presbyterian congregations in Woolwich and thus two sets of records. I notice that there are listings online for

Woolwich.

Presbyterian Church, New Road.  C 1836-1920

Scots Church C 1810-1830.
--------------
I later learned that the time when Rev. Alexander John Scott was minister, 1831-1846 was a challenge as he was not ordained by the local Presbytery due to his stand on doctrinal issues. He was well liked locally, and he remained there and preached for 15 years, and I gather this produced either a formal split with Presbyterian authorities or the roots of an eventual pair of congregations. The term Scots Church seems the older and I know that my family records from 1800 are in their record books. There is more on the life of Rev. Alexander John Scott
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_John_Scott_(principal)?oldformat=true

I can find no reference to an active Presbyterian church within Woolwich currently and the final chapter of the Scots Church and New Road Presbyterian congregations appears to be covered in a local history of an ongoing Anglican church.

"In 1965, the Rev. Derek Baker and the congregation of St. Andrew’s Presbyterian Church, Woolwich came to share St Mary’s Church when their own building became unsafe. It was a case of a fully turned circle. For in 1662, the Rev. John Hawkes, the Rector of St Mary’s Church, walked out of St Mary’s to become the first Presbyterian Minister in Woolwich. St Andrew’s Church still had the bible that he had taken with him and this was re-bound to celebrate a ground breaking sharing agreement between the two churches in 1974. At first, St Andrew’s had a service each Sunday after the Anglican service, but it was soon decided to have a joint service once a month and finally it was decided to meet together every week.

In the 1970’s St Andrew’s Presbyterian Church joined the United Reformed Church, but continued to meet at St Mary’s. Sadly, due to declining numbers, St Andrew’s Church was dissolved in 2001. But good relations between our two denominations continue."
https://www.stmaryswoolwich.co.uk/page4.html

In the case of your duplicate records for a baptism, possibly the creation of a second Presbyterian affiliated church during the period of Rev. A. J. Scott's tenure was a factor, and that duplicate records were made as a safe guard to ensure that none of the original baptism records were ever lost, despite the fact that there would be two churches. Christian churches has typically been strict that there can never be two baptisms of the same individual so I would suggest this is either a duplicate record made by an extra cautious keeper of records so that both churches would have a record for posterity or possibly two individuals with the same name. Good luck with your research.


Offline Cory Newton

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: St. Andrew's United Reform(ed) Church, Woolwich
« Reply #6 on: Friday 29 March 24 17:26 GMT (UK) »
I was also tracing an ancestor through these churches and confused by the records. In my case, the ancestor was a member of the British Army 2nd Artillery. The Royal Artillery Barracks was headquartered in London from 1776 until 2007. It was located in Woolwich.

If you check the England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers 1567-1936 you can sort through it. In Register 4 Births, Marriage, and Deaths for Kent and Scots Church, Piece 1994: Woolwich (Scots Church), 1822-1840 you can see that the records contain entries from Woolwich in Kent and entries for Woolwich in Scots Church on New Road south of the river Thames in London (Middlesex county). I've seen a number of entries referencing births of soldiers in the same regiment as my ancestor and they all occur at the Woolwich Scots Church in London.

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/1791471:2972
Newton
Loker
Maycroft
Colbert
Fitzpatrick
O’Neill
McKiernan