Author Topic: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations  (Read 17690 times)

Offline supermoussi

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Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« on: Wednesday 24 July 13 13:03 BST (UK) »
For those that are thinking of surname testing it is best to have a realistic view of what can be expected otherwise it can lead to disappointment.

For starters it should be noted that the nationality with the largest number of test results is American. Reasons are obviously that they have five times the population of Britain and also 25% greater GDP per capita, i.e., they have more money to spend.


The US is a melting pot from all over the world and so has a different ethnic breakdown compared to Britain. Even when you look at the part of the American population that has British origins, its breakdown is still different than that in old blighty. Whereas the largest part of the UK's populace are English, then the Scottish and finally the Welsh and Irish. American has a much larger proportion of Scottish and Irish, due to the Highland Clearances, Potato Famine, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29

When you add in the keen interest in Scottish Clans and Irish Septs that has been fuelled by tacky badge companies the result is that Scottish and Irish surname projects tend to be better represented than English or Welsh ones. This will obviously mean that if you're Scottish or Irish you will have a better chance of finding a match with your test than if you are English or Welsh.


As the English are the biggest part of Britain's population, what can they expect from joining a Surname DNA project? If we look at a project for a typical English name, say Green, we will get an idea:-

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/green/default.aspx?section=yresults


The results are split into about 40 groups of people who have found matches which are listed in the top half, and then an "Ungrouped" section right at the bottom which lists people who have had zero matches. There are approximately 150 results in the top matched section and also 150 in the "Ungrouped" section. Most have an earliest Ancestor with a location of either the US or unknown. Ones that have a known specific British origin (i.e. with a name, date and place) are thin on the ground.

On the face of it, if a random person called "Green" were to test today they would have a 50% of finding a match. Seeing as it is likely that only a subset of British Green families emigrated to the US, the natural conclusion would be that a modern day British person of the name "Green" would have an even lower (possibly much lower) chance of finding a match than 50%. Even if you find a match what do you find out? In most cases all you will find is that you have other members of your surname family in America, and will not find any information that can help extend your tree back in time.

Seeing as it is going to cost you $129, $208, or $308 to test (depending on whether you take the 37, 67 or 111 marker tests - note that testing 12 markers is 99.99% useless) you need to weigh up whether such odds make it worthwhile.


The same sort of picture applies to Welsh names, e.g. the Price Project:-

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/pricesurnamedna/default.aspx?section=yresults


If we look at a Scottish Clan project it is interesting to note the difference. For example the McDonald project has 1500 test results (only about half have the McDonald name though) which makes the English/Welsh surname projects look puny:-

http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/tables.htm


CONCLUSIONS

By far the best chances you have of finding a match is to actually go out and find another person that has a possible link to your paper trail or has the same surname and comes from the same location as your ancestors. If you just take the test blindly though it is going to be pot luck whether you get a match or find any useful information. Although more results will slowly eke out over time it is a fact of life that many lines will die out over time so many will always remain unmatched.

Offline DevonCruwys

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 24 July 13 16:22 BST (UK) »
I agree that if you are interested in taking a Y-DNA test then it is best to have a hypothesis and to test other surname lines that you are interested in at the same time. All the surname projects are run by volunteer project administrators some of whom do a better job than others. By far the majority of projects for high-frequency surnames are led by project administrators in America and most of these projects are dominated by American participants and have few British testees. Taking a blind test with one of these projects is not likely to yield much in the way of useful results in the short term. However, there does seem to be a growing interest in DNA testing in the UK and that could well change in the future.

There are some surname projects that offer free DNA tests. It's always worth checking the list in the ISOGG Wiki:

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Free_DNA_tests

The Phillips DNA Project in particular has done an excellent job of reaching out to participants in the British Isles. The match rate in their project for British participants is much lower than that for Americans but the situation is improving all the time.

It is also worth checking out the website of the Guild of One-Name Studies to see if the Guild member has a DNA project associated with their one-name study. Guild members have a special deal with Family Tree DNA and can purchase 37-marker tests all year round direct from the Guild for £80 including postage. Phillips is one of the surnames registered with the Guild.

I would add one word of caution. There are many surname lines that are destined for extinction. You cannot go back and get DNA samples from deceased people in twenty or thirty years time so if you want to get the DNA record you have to get it while you still have the chance, even if the results aren't likely to help you immediately. Testees at FTDNA can nominate a beneficiary so even if they get nothing from the results it's possible that their results will yield breakthroughs in the future.
Researching: Ayshford, Berryman, Bodger, Boundy, Cruse, Cruwys, Dillon, Faithfull, Kennett, Keynes, Ratty, Tidbury, Trask, Westcott, Wiggins, Woolfenden.

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 24 July 13 17:06 BST (UK) »
The Lost Cousins has an interesting article on DNA testing for ancestry purposes, which the US journal Science described as "recreational genetics" or "vanity tests".

I am not sure whether I can provide a link for copyright reasons but if you google “Lost Cousins Newsletter 13.3.13”, you should find the article easily enough.
Elwyn

Offline Alexander.

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 24 July 13 23:14 BST (UK) »
I view DNA testing similarly to how I see other genealogy methods. I might not find all the answers right away after finding a new resource, but over time, collecting bits of evidence can help build a more accurate picture of my ancestors.

While an inexpensive 12-marker YDNA test isn't going to tell you a lot, it gets people interested and understanding the potential of further testing. And for that reason, I think it is well worth it.


Offline joboy

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 25 July 13 02:54 BST (UK) »






I would add one word of caution. There are many surname lines that are destined for extinction. You cannot go back and get DNA samples from deceased people in twenty or thirty years time so if you want to get the DNA record you have to get it while you still have the chance, even if the results aren't likely to help you immediately. Testees at FTDNA can nominate a beneficiary so even if they get nothing from the results it's possible that their results will yield breakthroughs in the future.
I could not agree more with this statement as my surname showed 117 in 2002 and I am the last of my line with it.
It does not appear in GOONS and their are very few in 192 or Skype sites.
Makes me wish that I had had a son .. but 'Cest la Vie'
Joe
Gill UK and Australia
Bell UK and Australia
Harding(e) Australia
Finch UK and Australia

My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.

Offline supermoussi

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #5 on: Friday 26 July 13 15:50 BST (UK) »
While an inexpensive 12-marker YDNA test isn't going to tell you a lot

If you are relatively unusual it may be interesting, but if you are a dead typical Brit it has a 70% chance of just saying that you are a dead typical Brit (e.g., Haplogroup R1b), and won't be good enough to confirm that you are related to someone with the same surname.

Many people are not impressed when this is all they get.

Offline Flattybasher9

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #6 on: Friday 26 July 13 16:05 BST (UK) »
What I cannot understand about the family tracing bit of DNA research is, if we all originated at/from a single source, we all should be carrying a level/marker of DNA from that source. Looking at history and the origins of our species, over thousands if not millions of years, in caves, jungles, plains, in wars etc, even today, there was/is still a level of raping of women. From the past there would be little or no records of who raped who, and therefore, the real traceable origins will be unknown. But, it seems conclusions are being made by what is found by DNA research as the these origins. If the accuracy is based on supposition, how can this research be seen as accurate?

Regards

Malky

Offline supermoussi

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #7 on: Friday 26 July 13 20:38 BST (UK) »
What I cannot understand about the family tracing bit of DNA research is, if we all originated at/from a single source, we all should be carrying a level/marker of DNA from that source.

c.98% of our DNA is the same as that found in Chimpanzees.

From the past there would be little or no records of who raped who, and therefore, the real traceable origins will be unknown.

Non-Paternal Events, or NPEs, is a term used in DNA-speak for children born via adoption, affairs or rapes, i.e. where the biological father is different to the father that raised the child.

They are common across all social classes and we all have them if you go back enough generations. It is not uncommon for people to find that their Y-DNA matches people of a different surname.

Offline LPlantagenet

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Re: Surname Tests - Realistic Expectations
« Reply #8 on: Friday 26 July 13 21:53 BST (UK) »
What I cannot understand about the family tracing bit of DNA research is, if we all originated at/from a single source, we all should be carrying a level/marker of DNA from that source. Looking at history and the origins of our species, over thousands if not millions of years, in caves, jungles, plains, in wars etc, even today, there was/is still a level of raping of women. From the past there would be little or no records of who raped who, and therefore, the real traceable origins will be unknown. But, it seems conclusions are being made by what is found by DNA research as the these origins. If the accuracy is based on supposition, how can this research be seen as accurate?

Regards

Malky

************************

Genetic genealogy is not based on supposition.  Two men who share a common male-line ancestor will have matching or very similar Y-DNA signatures.  The closer the match, the closer the relationship.  Here is a link to the guidelines used to evaluate these matches; however, Family Tree also presents customers with a list of matches deemed to have shared a common male-line ancestor within the past 500 years and contact information for each of them. 

http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=48

Once a family's Y-DNA signature has been established, it can be used to identify other descendants who have not been able to trace their line by traditional means and to distinguish them from unrelated families with the same surname.  In the Britton DNA Project, we have identified 10 Britton families, each with its own unique Y-DNA signature. 

Lindsey Britton













Looking for the ancestors of John Britton bc 1672/3, probably in England, but living in Henrico Co., VA by 1684--The family has a rare Y-DNA signature and belongs to subgroup AS7E of Haplogroup I1--We are Family Group 1 in the Britton Project