W M Lloyd - minister of Bethesda chapel

[C G]

It would be worth exploring the records at the Swansea record office to see if there was another Minister or member at the Chapel in late 19th Century:

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/BritonFerry/Chapels.html

Unfortunately there isnt a register of ministers. I think this is my only option.
C G

[millymcb]

Hi

Just to clarify what you are looking for: Is this correct?

Emlyn Arthur (Arthur Emlyn) Davies born 1899 is your grandfather
Born 1899 Briton Ferry to unmarried mother Mary Davies b 1871 Dressmaker who is with her mother Margaret Davies b 1850. Living 36 Regent St West, Briton Ferry 1901 and again in 1911.

You are looking for WM Lloyd - the the man you believe to be the father of Emlyn A Davies. He was not married to Mary Davies when Emlyn was born.

You don't know much about WM Lloyd other than stories about him being at the Bethesda Chapel as a minister/preacher of some kind "during the war". (presumed 2nd War - when he would be at least approx 70-75 years of age if not older)
Was this Bethesda Chapel in Briton Ferry?

You originally only had the name LLoyd from your mother who said he was a preacher/minister at Bethesda Chapel.
The initials WM came from a query about a Lloyd at the Chapel and were provided by Mrs T as a possibility (but not 100% it is him)
You think the M may stand for Morgan - where did this information come from? Mrs T or your mother?
Is it possible that it is actually Wm Lloyd  (ie short for William rather than two initials?)
Or - if he had a son Wilfred it is possible he was also a Wilfred.

You believe Mr Lloyd may have had children John, Peter and Wilfred (you don't know when)
Which Mr Lloyd is this?  Is the info on these children provided by Mrs T and related to the WM Lloyd she found at the chapel?  Or did this info on children come from your mother and relates only to the Mr Lloyd she knew of?

Do you have any idea of the rough ages of John, Peter and Wilfred? Did he have these later in life (ie would they be found in a Census or would it be later?)  (We need to be careful if there is a possibility they are still living)

You think he may have "left for Cardiff" at some point (no evidence for this and Mrs T says he was at Bethesda Chapel in WW2 so perhaps not - or he returned - or it is a different Mr Lloyd)


Mary was born about 1871 so presumably your Mr Lloyd (presumed possibly WM Lloyd) was of a similar age or perhaps older...ie born approx 1870 or earlier?

Have I understood correctly?

Is there anything else you know?  I presume Mr Lloyd did not ever marry Mary? Did he feature in Emlyn's life at all?

Do you have Emlyn's marriage certificate - and what did he put for father's occupation on it?

Milly

[millymcb]

Here is something interesting.

Assuming that the WM Lloyd mentioned is the one you are after (or even not so you can eliminate him).........

In a 1950 phone book there is this: 

Lloyd, Rev W M, 18 Shelone Ter.
Tel: Briton Ferry 2127

Now...
Searching for him at Shelone Terrace brings up this
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=28558

Which lists a paper in their archive
Certificates appointing an Authorised Person to register marriages, 1899-1953
<CB/NPT R 164> William Morgan Lloyd of 18 Shelone Terrace, Briton Ferry; Bethesda, Church Street, Briton Ferry; Congregationalists; 18 Nov 1930
[1 paper]

So... it looks like this is possibly the WM Lloyd referred to by Mrs T (Authorised 1930 and poss still living in Briton Ferry post WW2 in 1950)...although we do not know his age so cannot be sure.
Where did you get Morgan from? If it was from this reference it doesn't help. But if it came from somewhere else than that woud be useful corroboration.


There are some later phone book entries for a Rev WM Lloyd but not in Briton Ferry.
These may or may not be the same man and go on until at least 1963 so he would be really old (might be worth checking for deaths in Llandeilo to see if there is a death and what age it was).


In a 1953 phone book there is a Lloyd, Rev W. M. living at Morfa Gwyn
Phone: Aberporth 301
(Aberporth is in Cerdigion which is not near Cardiff or Briton Ferry so it may be a different man)

In 1959- 1963
Lloyd, Rev W.M. at 19 Diana Road,
Tel: Llandeilo 3214
(Llandeilo is Carmarthenshire)


Milly

[C G]

Hi

Just to clarify what you are looking for: Is this correct?

Emlyn Arthur (Arthur Emlyn) Davies born 1899 is your grandfather
Born 1899 Briton Ferry to unmarried mother Mary Davies b 1871 Dressmaker who is with her mother Margaret Davies b 1850. Living 36 Regent St West, Briton Ferry 1901 and again in 1911.

You are looking for WM Lloyd - the the man you believe to be the father of Emlyn A Davies. He was not married to Mary Davies when Emlyn was born.

You don't know much about WM Lloyd other than stories about him being at the Bethesda Chapel as a minister/preacher of some kind "during the war". (presumed 2nd War - when he would be at least approx 70-75 years of age if not older)
Was this Bethesda Chapel in Briton Ferry?

You originally only had the name LLoyd from your mother who said he was a preacher/minister at Bethesda Chapel.
The initials WM came from a query about a Lloyd at the Chapel and were provided by Mrs T as a possibility (but not 100% it is him)
You think the M may stand for Morgan - where did this information come from? Mrs T or your mother?
Is it possible that it is actually Wm Lloyd  (ie short for William rather than two initials?)
Or - if he had a son Wilfred it is possible he was also a Wilfred.

You believe Mr Lloyd may have had children John, Peter and Wilfred (you don't know when)
Which Mr Lloyd is this?  Is the info on these children provided by Mrs T and related to the WM Lloyd she found at the chapel?  Or did this info on children come from your mother and relates only to the Mr Lloyd she knew of?

Do you have any idea of the rough ages of John, Peter and Wilfred? Did he have these later in life (ie would they be found in a Census or would it be later?)  (We need to be careful if there is a possibility they are still living)

You think he may have "left for Cardiff" at some point (no evidence for this and Mrs T says he was at Bethesda Chapel in WW2 so perhaps not - or he returned - or it is a different Mr Lloyd)


Mary was born about 1871 so presumably your Mr Lloyd (presumed possibly WM Lloyd) was of a similar age or perhaps older...ie born approx 1870 or earlier?

Have I understood correctly?

Is there anything else you know?  I presume Mr Lloyd did not ever marry Mary? Did he feature in Emlyn's life at all?

Do you have Emlyn's marriage certificate - and what did he put for father's occupation on it?

Milly

Hello Milly 
I have read through each paragraph.  When Mrs T gave me the initials W M Lloyd. I then discoverd a W M Lloyd 18 Shelone Tce, Briton Ferry in the Swansea Archives. This is where I go the Morgan from. I am awaiting a reply from Mrs T with a possible age of W M Lloyd during the 2nd WW. 

The person that gave this information to Mrs T is also in their 90's and remembers the sons well. If still alive they would also be well in to their nineties today.

My great grandmother was born approx 1871 and I am asuming that he would have been of the same age or older

No he did not feature Arthur's life.

I will try to order a marriage certificate to see if there is a name or occupation. I doubt it, it would probably say unkown.
This will be my next step.
Thank you
C G 

[C G]

Here is something interesting.

Assuming that the WM Lloyd mentioned is the one you are after (or even not so you can eliminate him).........

In a 1950 phone book there is this: 

Lloyd, Rev W M, 18 Shelone Ter.
Tel: Briton Ferry 2127

Now...
Searching for him at Shelone Terrace brings up this
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=28558

Which lists a paper in their archive
Certificates appointing an Authorised Person to register marriages, 1899-1953
<CB/NPT R 164> William Morgan Lloyd of 18 Shelone Terrace, Briton Ferry; Bethesda, Church Street, Briton Ferry; Congregationalists; 18 Nov 1930
[1 paper]

So... it looks like this is possibly the WM Lloyd referred to by Mrs T (Authorised 1930 and poss still living in Briton Ferry post WW2 in 1950)...although we do not know his age so cannot be sure.
Where did you get Morgan from? If it was from this reference it doesn't help. But if it came from somewhere else than that woud be useful corroboration.


There are some later phone book entries for a Rev WM Lloyd but not in Briton Ferry.
These may or may not be the same man and go on until at least 1963 so he would be really old (might be worth checking for deaths in Llandeilo to see if there is a death and what age it was).


In a 1953 phone book there is a Lloyd, Rev W. M. living at Morfa Gwyn
Phone: Aberporth 301
(Aberporth is in Cerdigion which is not near Cardiff or Briton Ferry so it may be a different man)

In 1959- 1963
Lloyd, Rev W.M. at 19 Diana Road,
Tel: Llandeilo 3214
(Llandeilo is Carmarthenshire)


Milly

Hello again Milly 
You have definitely been busy. That is interesting as I have contacted Swansea archives and they do not have any record of Baptisms, Marriage or Burials at Bethesda Chapel. I was then hoping to find a minister Lloyd between 1897 - 1899.
I have just checked A Emlyn birth certificate and he was born in Dec 1898 and the birth was registerd in Jan 1899. I am led to believe that he was then baptised at Rheoboth Baptist Church (his grandmothers chapel/church).
Once I know the d.o.b of WM, I can then hopefully eliminate him from my research.
With regards to archives does that mean there was a minister WM Lloyd - register of marriages between 1899 and 1953.
This is a coincidence.
Thank you for your help!
C G 

[millymcb]

Hi

No - the dataset that the document comes from covers the period 1899 - 1953.
The document itself is just one document within this and refers to an event in 1930.
It looks to be a copy of a certificate which certifies him as an authorised person to register marriages
 
Definitely worth taking a look at if you can.

Regarding the Morgan middle name... that is the only reference so far to William Morgan...both of us have the same one - so it cannot be used as verification unfortunately. It might just be a coincidence. You should keep other options open too.

The one good thing is that the telephone directory for 1950 does put this Rev WM Lloyd at same address as William Morgan Lloyd in 1930 - which covers the WW2 period - and is very close to the chapel. It also shows that there was at least one WM Lloyd who was a Reverend at that address. We can hope it is the same person - but it could be a father and son for all we know.

Other things to consider -
How sure was Mrs T that WM Lloyd was the ONLY Lloyd who was a preacher or minister over all those years?
And how sure was she that the initials were WM?

I too doubt there will be anything on the birth certificate but you can't hope to move on until you have it.  Perhaps his baptism registration willy have something on it (not that likely but you never know).

Have you found the births of those children anywhere. I had a quick look but couldn't come up with anything.
There was a Wilfred Lawrence Lloyd mentioned born  dec 1905 in a family tree which had a William Morgan as father - married Mary Elizabeth. He lived and died in Swansea about 1952 (from memory I dont have it in front of me).  It was the most likely Wilfred I could see - but if they were in Swansea then it seems unlikely he was the one from Briton Ferry in that doc and the phone book.  Unless he just went there shortly before he died. This William Morgan was born about 1879 - which makes him younger than her - but it is still possible. His youth could also explain why they did not marry.

I do wonder about the fact that he became a Minister in the same town though if people knew what had happened.


Milly

[millymcb]

I think it might be useful - if you are able - to check out and see if there are any local newspapers you can look at anywhere.  As a prominent member of the community he may be mentioned 0 and that may give his age etc. There may even be an obituary for him.

Also - that same record office has other papers from the Bethesda Chapel - accounts and minutes etc... he may be mentioned in these? There may be entries for his retirement or funeral or whatever?

Finding his death and burial may be the easiest way of working back to find out who he was.

Milly

[johnl1956]

Hello,
Just came across this thread.
The Rev William Morgan Lloyd was my late grandfather.
He had three sons, and was a chapel minister in Britton Ferry, Glynarthen (near Aberporth) and
Llandeilo.
John

[millymcb]

Hello John - Welcome to Rootschat.

Hopefully CG will see the reply notification to your post and be along later

Milly