Author Topic: Watts families of Corsley, Cheapmanslade areas near Warminster  (Read 2476 times)

Offline Beaujolaiswine

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 342
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Watts families of Corsley, Cheapmanslade areas near Warminster
« on: Monday 21 October 13 21:04 BST (UK) »
Hi

I am trying to place a Frederick Watts a tailor according to the 1871 Census living in Islington London with wife Mary and possibly grandchildren as all appear rather young to be children. Frederick is said to be born about 1811 (maybe earlier) in the Warminster area.

I have this Frederick Watts as related to and possibly father of my great grandmother Mary Ann Watts born about 1859 in my family Tree on Ancestry.

From searching the Census records for the Corsley and Cheapmanslade areas in 1841 and 1851. I can find lots of Watts even a few Fredericks (mainly laborers) but none appear to be the right one.

It is my opinion that the Frederick Watts I am seeking may have left this area of Wiltshire to find work in London

Has anyone researched the Watts family from this area?

Regards

Richard
Garrett (particularly in Hampshire); Miller (particulalry in Hampshire); Goodey/Goody (particularly in London, Middlesex and South Oxfordshire); Phillips, Williamson and Crockett all in Buckinghamshire; Farnham in Cornwall, Pyne in Sussex and Ireland; Mursell in Hampshire and Isle of Wight; Burnett in Scotland; Bramham in Yorkshire; Colebrooke; Watts

Offline JaneyCanuck

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,031
  • The Famous Five take tea on Parliament Hill
    • View Profile
Re: Watts families of Corsley, Cheapmanslade areas near Warminster
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 26 October 13 23:00 BST (UK) »
Maybe with some more details, some non-Watts-s can lend a hand. ;)

You have these things in your family tree -- you put them there? Can you explain where they came from, e.g. how you have this Frederick as your Mary Ann's father? Is he named on her marriage or birth certificate? Does her "about 1859" birthdate come from her marriage certificate, a census ...? Can you tell us whom she married, what info you have about her date and place of birth (e.g. from censuses)?

In 1871, a 7-yr-old child is indeed too young to be the son of 60-yr-old Mary, barring a medical phenomenon. But your Mary Ann would have been only 12ish herself.

There don't seem to be matches for any of the children listed, in 1861.

And your 1871 Frederick Watts just doesn't seem to exist before that census! I can't even see a death that matches his age in the next 20 years.

There are Mary Ann Watts births 1857-1861 in Wiltshire in 1857 (2), 1858 and 1859. Do you know which is yours? The birth certificate would certainly be the way to go, to answer your questions about her parents.

... Okay, I see numerous trees that have Mary Ann Watts born in 1859 in Worton, Wiltshire. That is in Devizes, Wiltshire, which would make her birth the one in December quarter 1858 in that reg dist.
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
And they all have her parents as John Watts 1806 and Merab Romaine/Roman 1804. That seems highly unlikely. Has anyone actually got the birth certificate?? It looks like one or two people have stuck the 1861 census info into their three, and a bunch of people have copied it ... possibly from those charming Anc'y "hints" ...

In 1861, John and Merab (Merah at Anc'y) are in Worton, aged 55 and 57, with children John, 16, George, 10, and Mary Ann, 2. I don't think so. But hadn't you tracked your Mary Ann to there? I don't understand where the idea of Frederick and Mary being her parents came from ...

In 1851 in Potterne, John and Merab had daughters
Mary A, 22
Emma, 14
Merab, 12
Jane, 9
and I would think it most likely that your Mary Ann is the daughter of one of them.
They also have son John, 6, and grandson George, 3 months. I imagine he was daughter Mary Ann's son.

In 1841 in Poulshot, they also had
James, 11
Elizabeth, 9
so more candidates for mother or father of both your Mary Ann and young George.

One of the people with a tree showing John and Merab improbably as Mary Ann's parents has corrected the name of Merab (from Meral) at Anc'y. You might want to collaborate!

Mary Ann's birth certificate will tell you who her mother is, but unless she was the daughter of James, it probably will not tell you her father's identity, unfortunately.

Btw, just in case Merab's age was overstated in censuses and she could have been Mary Ann's mother, I checked:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JQNT-XVW
baptised 1804 Potterne

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/ND11-6LQ
child William baptised 1825 Potterne

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKQ1-BSW
married 1828 Potterne

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQ3Q-HTC
1881 census, Merab Watts, aged 77, shown as mother, in the household with Mary Ann, 22, and her husband Thomas H (Hillier) Brown in bishops Lavington.

But very obviously, the numbers just don't add up. Mary Ann very possibly does name John Watts as her father on her marriage certificate though, and may have thought they were her parents.


... all assuming that this Mary Ann Watts is your Mary Ann Watts!
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline JaneyCanuck

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,031
  • The Famous Five take tea on Parliament Hill
    • View Profile
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline JaneyCanuck

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,031
  • The Famous Five take tea on Parliament Hill
    • View Profile
Re: Watts families of Corsley, Cheapmanslade areas near Warminster
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 27 October 13 00:41 BST (UK) »
From one of those threads:

"According to her marriage certificate on 11 Jan 1880 at St. Pancras parish church my great grandmother Mary Ann Watts a spinster age 20, Address 42 Judd St, St. Pancras (father Frederick Watts Deceased occupation Tailor)"

Have you realised that Minnie is a nickname for Mary?

The 1871 household you initially inquired about in this thread has "daughter" Minnie, aged 10, born in Lambeth, along with Mary, 15, Thomas, 7, and Betsey, 12, in that odd order, all born in Lambeth. And yes, without checking every other thread you have posted about this, I see you have wondered whether Minnie was Mary.

Altogether too many threads, I'm afraid, and none with any reference to any of the others that went before it, to save others duplicating what was discussed in them.
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?


Offline Beaujolaiswine

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 342
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Watts families of Corsley, Cheapmanslade areas near Warminster
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 27 October 13 10:47 GMT (UK) »
Hi JaneyCanuck

I am sorry about any confusion by my other threads on the subject of my Watts ancestry. I am not sure how to reference threads in different posts  ???

I do not know for certain that the 1871 Census is my Frederick Watts. All I know for certain is that my great grandmother names a Frederick Watts (a tailor) as her father and that he was dead by the time of her marriage in 1880 when she says she was age 20.

As the 1871 Census was the only one which may have given me a lead to my Watts ancestry I have tried to follow it. This has not been easy as this Frederick Watts doesn't seem to appear in other Census records and I have so far found no burial records for him in London. My reason for positing on the Wiltshire site was in an attempt to find someone who had researched the Watts family which appeared to be plentiful in this area of Wiltshire.

Sorry if this has put you to any trouble  :(

As to the first name Minnie my Great aunt was known as Minnie (although christened Louisa) perhaps due to her mother being called this?

As to the birth place of my Mary Ann daughter of Frederick, I have no real guarantee of where she was born as I don't have her birth certificate and the Census records that she appears in give three different places of birth, Lambeth in 1882, England in 1891 and St. Pancras in 1901. Whose to say it wasn't in Wiltshire and that she was brought up by her grandparents?

I really don't know where to go with this major blockage in my family tree.

Thanks for your interest.

Regards

Richard
Garrett (particularly in Hampshire); Miller (particulalry in Hampshire); Goodey/Goody (particularly in London, Middlesex and South Oxfordshire); Phillips, Williamson and Crockett all in Buckinghamshire; Farnham in Cornwall, Pyne in Sussex and Ireland; Mursell in Hampshire and Isle of Wight; Burnett in Scotland; Bramham in Yorkshire; Colebrooke; Watts