Thanks for the links Ambly, I will have a bit more time to follow them up at the weekend . The person in question has been driving me mad for ages. Its John Joyce born around 1822. In Borough/Lambeth all his addresses are in ST Giles/Bloomsbury areas then later Islington and is always listed as a music printer. His father is a John Joyce who's trade, given on the marriage cert is a whitesmith. I have not been able to link my John to any of the older Joyce's in the 1841 census There are a couple of likely candidates who lived near the address given for his first child born in 1844 one of which is listed as a smith from Lincoln ct ST Giles, the forenames used by the family are commonly used in the family groups that are directly descended from my John. I've also found records relating to a John Joyce who is a whitesmith who had two children Maria and Henry baptised in 1833 at ST Martin in the fields his wife is listed as Maria again all names used in my Johns family but, I've not found any links to join them together. There are two John Joyce's listed as being in Clerkenwell prison in 1841 of around my John Joyce's age which may explain why I cant find him elsewhere.
Thanks again Ambly
Tezzer
