Name Change: Douglas to Drysdale

[Ronda231]

Why should we doubt the veracity of the 1503 document (copied below)?


1. There are no contemporaneous records of the incident in 1503 and, bearing in mind, 15 of Johnston's men were said to have been murdered in the encounter, there should have been records of the incident and that the Douglases were declared outlaws.

2. The copies of this document in existence today were either typewritten or printed in the early to mid 1900s, the earliest genuine draft is perhaps that which was printed the in Dunfermline Press 30-9-1863.

3. The text of the document is not consistent with something that was written in Scotland 500 years ago. The style & wording are typical of something that would have been composed in the late 1700s early 1800s.

4. Some of the place names recorded in the document i.e. Brushwood Haugh & Greenstone Hill do not appear to exist.

5. The document is titled "The origin of the name Drysdale" and this suggests that prior to 1503, the name Drysdale did not exist, when in fact we know for a fact that there were families of Drysdales in the Tillicoultry area in Clackmannanshire from the early 1400s onwards.

Regards

Copy of document downloaded from:
http://www.genealogywise.com/forum/topics/the-below-could-have-possibly-been-titled-a-bit-different?groupUrl=drysdalearchives

[gensearch]

Hi Ronda231,

Those are excellent points regarding the "Origin of the Drysdales" document.

Best regards,
Robert

[Ronda231]

Hi Robert,

Some further stuff to come yet:

The 1588 will of James Drysdaill of Dollar (& Lochleven) Scotlandspeople copyright, plus a full professional transcription is attached in pdf for download below.

James Drysdaill was the trusted servant of William Douglas of Lochleven & an opponent of Mary Queen of Scots.

He was involved in a number of Lochleven intrigues and following Mary's escape from the castle in 1568, threatened to put a sword to her heart.

William Dryisdaill of Dollar (post above dated 11-8-23 refers) was the son of James.

One of William Dryisdaill's sons was Symon, also of Dollar, who was reputedly a direct descendant of one of the three Douglas brothers and who was documented as being the first to record the story of the 1503 fight between the Douglas brothers and the Johnstons & their subsequent adoption of the name Drysdale (from Dryfesdale, Dumfries).

Regards

[gensearch]

Hi Ronda,

There are many Scottish place names in South Africa. In particular, within Johannesburg there are 2 suburbs named Greenstone Hill and Brushwood Haugh.

Best regards,
Robert

[Ronda231]

Hi Robert,

I noted your earlier posts on this with interest and have checked out the maps. It would seem that many years ago, some Scottish Drysdale, aware of the 1503 story, was involved in the planning and naming of the roads in those Johannesburg suburbs - I also noted Douglas road, Drysdale road and Douglas crescent!

With regard to Brushwood Haugh - there is actually a Scottish equivalent in the Dryfesdale area and there is also a mill there. The Mill lies on the Water of Milk river which forms the parish boundary between Dryfesdale and Tundergarth. The Johnstones owned lands in this area (see map below) A Scottish word for Brushwood is Scrogg and Haugh is just an area of low lying land next to a river. The Mill is called Scrogg mill  - see images below:



There was also a Johnstone of Greenhill (not Greenstone Hill) not too far from this mill (about 5 miles away) around that time, who had lived in that area for a long time - see image & reference below:




Regards



Reference - THE ANNANDALE FAMILY BOOK OF THE JOHNSTONES - EARLS AND MARQUISES OF ANNANDALE BY SIR WILLIAM FRASER Vol 1 1894

[Ronda231]

Post number 1 in this thread mentioned the article in the Dunfermline press dated 30 Sept.1863, a partial copy of this is shown below.

A partial copy of the Map of Dumfriesshire by William Crawford & Son - 1840 showing Greenhill and Scrogs is also enclosed.

Finally a postcard image showing Scroggs Mill on the Water of Milk & dating from before 1917 is enclosed:


Regards

[gensearch]

I see that the document received by the Dunfermline Press was typed and the place name is Greenstonhill. It would seem not unreasonable that Greenstonhill from this press document could be one and the same as Greenhill from your map. Great research to come up with all these historical documents!

[Ronda231]

Hi Robert,

Thank you for your comments & your observation about Greenstonhill, which differs ever so slightly from the 'Greenstone Hill' that is written in other versions of the 1503 document, this is a very good point!

I think that that is one good example of how a story can evolve and change incrementally as it is passed on from person to person, also perhaps with the language being modernised as it is passed down from generation to generation.

Example:
The word 'Tocsin', as used in the document (Tocsin originated from France in the 1580s) is not one that the Brothers could have used, the likely old Scots terminology would have been 'put to the horn':

ref.  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/put_to_the_horn
Verb - Put to the horn (Scotland, transitive, law, historical) To outlaw (a person) by three blasts of the horn at the Cross of Edinburgh.

Similarly, I'm pretty sure that in the 1500s, a desperate bunch of Scottish outlaws would not have used such flowery phraseology as:

"We took shelter under the shadow of the Ochil Hills in a lonely valley on the River Devon.....
..under the ope of the Ochils, and wish the name of Drysdale to flourish in the lonely valley"

Scenario - The hypothetical life of the story (based on the text printed in the Dunfermline press):

Initially, the 1503 story would have been known to the 3 Douglas Brothers and, if recorded by one of them, would have been written down in the old scots language of that time (see Johnston of Greenhill image in post above for an example of old scots language) alternatively the story could have been passed on verbally:

In 1620 it is said that Simon Drysdale of Dollar was the first to copy the story
Then Robert Drysdale of Tillicoultry copied it in 1708
Then John Drysdale of Dunfermline copied it in 1835
Then James Drysdale of Dunfermline copied it in 1838
Then John Drysdale of Montrose copied it in 1841
Then George Drysdale of Aberdeen copied it in 1845
and finally David Drysdale of Glasgow copied it in 1857

As can be seen from the above, the document/story has gone through a sufficient number of stages, in its' 5 century life, for it to have had the possibility of changing & evolving significantly from its original form!

Regards

[gensearch]

Strictly hypothetical. but I would venture that Simon Drysdale may have been the first to put an oral history down on paper. While the 3 brothers were still alive, the ruse of changing their name would have been negated if a written document could have been found by the authorities which incriminated them. So it would not have been prudent for them to put their story in writing. By 1620 all 3 would have been deceased and that danger of discovery would have passed.

Yes, now that you mention it, that document language is rather poetic.

I have wondered too why they didn't just charge the Johnstons a commensurate fee for entering their property for a specific purpose rather than killing them.