Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp Belgium

[annemaj]

Hello again,
I've just realised that you refer to her husband's death certificate, do the details match the ones I have?   Husband was Frederick John Vinall.    I'm afraid I don't understand what it means by "online up to 1936".    Where online?   Frederick John Vinall died in Nice in 1934 and Antoinette herself died in 1943 in a concentration camp in France, at least that is what I am told.  Both their wills were probated in England.
Sorry to have to ask again as I do appreciate the help.         

[leen]

Yes, it’s definitely the same Frederick John Vinall (deceased 23th May 1934)
The death cert is on the Archives Départementales des Alpes maritimes
up to 1936 : death certs for Nice are online up to and including 1936
direct link to the cert

http://www.rootschat.com/links/019wx/            (go to image 416)

among other information there are also newspapers online under the heading Archives Bibliographiques : the link ‘ presses anciennes’ then Choisir  ‘Petit Niçois (Le) - 1881 à 1943’ then choose a année ( year) and click on 'lancer la recherche'

http://www.rootschat.com/links/019wy/    (Archives départementales des Alpes-Maritimes - Geneawiki)

[annemaj]

Thank you SO much for these links, absolutely brilliant and much, much more than I could have hoped for.   I now have Frederick John Vinall's death certificate.    I don't have much hope of finding Antionette's, why she was in a 'concentration camp' is a puzzle.    I don't think it was a camp as such, as she wrote a letter in 1942 from 'Hotel Central Borguez, Vaucluse' stating that she was "not allowed to leave without permission."   It all sounds a bit odd!
Could I please ask one more favour?    I need to find the niece of Antionette Vinall nee Van Nedervelde.    She is Marie Jeanne Van Nedervelde born about 1882/3 in Brussels, daughter of (I think) Karel-Lodewijk Van Nedervelde and Elizabeth Denayer.    I think Karel was Antoinette's brother.
As always, help very much appreciated.   Being out here in Australia makes it very hard to know where to start, but the links have been wonderful, so thank you again.
annemaj

[leen]

Sorry, most of the registers of the periode 1871-1899 for Brussels-Capital-Region (the City of Brussels is one of the municipalities) are not online yet.
The better news; there’s someone on Geneanet whose wife is a descendant of Karel Lodewijk Van Nedervelde. This Karel Lodewijk was married with Elisabeth De Nayer, was the son of Jean Baptiste Van Nedervelde and brother of Antoinette. There are no further details about Antoinette. Maybe you can contact this person he may have additional information.

http://gw.geneanet.org/bartfaingnaert?lang=en&pz=bart&nz=faingnaert&ocz=0&p=jean+baptiste&n=van+nedervelde&oc=1

The marriage Van Nedervelde - De Nayer was in Sint-Jans-Molenbeek (municipality of Brussels-Capital-Region) in 1884, the marriage cert isn’t available online but the marriage supplements are on FamilySearch including a birth extract of your Marie Jeanne Van Nedervelde (born De Nayer).

http://www.rootschat.com/links/019x9/     birth cert Charles Louis Van Nedervelde

http://www.rootschat.com/links/019xa/     marriage supplements Van Nedervelde - De Nayer   image 1349 / 1363

marriage supplements  : (date : dd/mm/yy)
image 1350 - birth extract  Charles Louis Van Nedervelde  ° Brussels 03/04/1860
image 1351 - proof of indigence Charles Louis Van Nedervelde
image 1352 - proof of residence (at Sint-Jans-Molenbeek) Charles Louis Van Nedervelde
image 1353 - militia cert of Charles Louis Van Nedervelde
image 1354 - Death extract Marie Therese Temmerman + Brussels 09/09/1866 (widow of Jean Francois Goffa and wife of Jean Baptiste Van Nedervelde)
image 1355 - the marriage publication from Brussels
image 1356 - birth extract Elisabeth De Nayer ° Sint-Joost-Ten-Node 18/09/1860
image 1357 - proof of residence (at Sint-Jans-Molenbeek) Elisabeth De Nayer
image 1358 - proof of indigence Elisabeth De Nayer
image 1359 - Death extract Pierre De Nayer + Brussels 26/02/1883, widower of Jeanne Vandenput
image 1360 - Death extract Jeanne Vandenput + Brussels 13/07/1866, wife of Pierre De Nayer
image 1361 / 1362 - birth extract Charles Louis Van Nedervelde ° St-Jans Molenbeek 21/12/1880 son of Charles Louis and Elise De Nayer
image 1363 - birth extract Marie Jeanne De Nayer ° Brussels 09/03/1883 daughter of Elise De Nayer

https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927071     

search / browse through the Belgian registers on FamilySearch
for Brussels-Capital-Regio :  click on ‘Belgian, Brabant, Civil Registration, 1582-1912, then on ‘Browse through 3,597,304 images’ and then on ‘Brussel’ or the municipality you want. 

or via the alternative link where the Dutch and Belgian records (available on FamilySearch) are more clearly arranged

http://zoekakten.nl/prov.php?id=BR    click on Brussel, then tick the box next to ‘Tafels or Geboorten  or ..... and then on ‘Maak een keuze’

groetjes, Leen

[annemaj]

Once again, thank you so much, I am following all links and your nice, clear instructions.
It is good that you have confirmed that Karel-Lodewijk and Antionette are brother and sister, and through going into the link to the guy's family tree, I found that she has two other brothers as well.
From the information that you have given me and looking at the records, there is only one hitch.
He has Karel-Lodewijk marrying Elizabeth Denayer which has to be a mistake as she married Charles-Louis born 1860, in 1884.   Charles-Louis is another brother, who has been missed out on his tree.
Antionette had a niece, Marie-Jeanne Van Nedervelde born about 1882/3, who I think was the daughter of her brother Charles-Louis (the one missed out) and Elizabeth Denayer.    They also had a son Charles-Louise born 1880 as I found, thanks to you.   It seems both children were born before the marriage as Marie-Jeanne is given her mother's maiden name and no father. 
I wonder if you could possibly translate image 1361 please.
Thank you so much once again, I could never have found all this information on my own.    I know it's a long shot, but if you ever want anything looked up here in Australia or the UK, please let me know.
Regards,
annemaj

[leen]

First of all, image 1361 is not the birth extract of Charles Louis as I mentioned (my mistake) but the consent to the marriage for Catherine De Nayer. 

the translation (understandable I hope, my English is far from perfect)

image 1361 (annex n° 12)
Before Master Notary Judocus Josephus Vandevelde residing at Overijse, has appeared in the presence of the witnesses mentioned below; Mrs Anna Maria Pay, widow of Mr Henry Denayer, without profession, residing at Hoeilaart. Wich appearer hereby declares to consent to the intended marriage between her granddaughter Elisabeth Denaeyer, ironer, residing at Sint-Jans-Molenbeek, Volksstraat /Rue du Peuple n° 24, daughter of the late Petrus Denayer and the late Joanna Vandenput;   and Mr Charles Louis Van Nedervelde, trucker, residing at Sint-Jans-Molenbeek, Volksstraat / Rue du Peuple n° 24.
Thereby the appearer gives the permission to all officers of the Civil Registry to solemnise the above mentioned marriage as if she would physically present herself.
Drawn up and legalized on Stamp duty free paper because of indigence according to a certificate presented to us and immediately given back, at Hoeilaart at the home of the appearer, today the twenty-fifth of October eighteen hundred and eighty four in the presence of the requested witnesses Mr Dejonker Guillaume, farmer and Mr Delsaert Joannes Petrus, tailor, both residing at Hoeilaart, who have signed with us Notary, after de reading. The appearer declared not being able to sign by illiteracy.

image 1362 (annex n° 13)
The year 1880,  the 21e October is born at Sint-Jans-Molenbeke Charles Louis Van Nedervelde, son of Charles Louis Van Nedervelde and Elise De Nayer.

Now Charles Louis / Karel Lodewijk.  Charles Louis is the French version of Karel Lodewijk in Flemisch or Dutch.  Karel Lodewijk born in 1860 and Charles Louis born in 1860 are one and the same person. At his birth he was registered as Charles Louis. In that time the Flemisch or French form was depending on the town in wich the child was registered or the civil registration officer. I would think that his parents, both from East Flanders, preferred ‘Karel Lodewijk’.  So this Antoinette Van Nedervelde has only two brothers : Jean Baptiste Francois and Charles Louis alias Karel Lodewijk (gosch this is confusing) and one sister : Marie. I searched the records and couldn’t find any others.
Yes Charles Louis ° 1880 and his sister Marie Jeanne ° 1883 are both born before the marriage of their parents.

No problem annemaj that’s RootsChat and thanks for your offer, you never know.
Groetjes
Leen

[annemaj]

Hi Leen,
Thank you once again.
I have access to a huge amount of UK records, so if you need any help don't hesitate to ask.
By the way, your English is as near to perfect as it could get!  Thanks for the translation.
I should have picked up on the Karel/Charles thing myself.    I only have very rusty schoolgirl French, but that should have been obvious.
Best regards,
Anne

[annemaj]

Hello Leen,
Could I possibly ask you one more favour please?    I really need to know the parents of a JEAN-BAPTIST VAN NEDERVELDE born 1821 if possible.  I have really tried to find him myself, but information available is not right (from the Van Nedervelde person who has a lot of info. online)   He has the parents as Petrus Van Nedervelde and Catharina Beernaert, but they would have been 59 and 48 when he was born, and anyway Catharina died in 1792 (I think).   I realise that it probably isn't possible to get this info. otherwise I would have come across it, but I thought it was worth asking.    As always, I appreciate any help.
Regard,
Anne

[leen]

Hi Anne,
According the marriage cert of Jean Baptiste is the date of birth correct and are the parents the right ones. I didn’t find his birth cert (searched in Elst, in the surrounding municipalities, the birthplace of his mother, alternate spellings, mothers name, etc). There should be an extract in the marriage supplements but the one you need (n° 214) isn’t online yet.  More childeren of  Van Nedervelde-Beernaert :  Isabella VAN NEDERVELDE ° Elst 24/12/1822 and Karel Lodewijk VAN NEDERVELDE  ° Elst 03/03/1825.

links to the certs and short translation   (date : day/month/year)

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a2g/  (marriage VAN NEDERVELDE - DE TEMMERMAN)

cert n° 214     city of Brussels marriage 12/03/1856 at 11:00 AM    (marriagepublications 2th and 9th March)
groom : Jean Baptiste VAN NEDERVELDE, born in Elst 04/01/1821, day laborer, residing at Brussels  Rue de la Coupe
parents : Pierre VAN NEDERVELDE and Jeanne Catherine BEERNAERT,  both deceased
grandparents : last residence and / or place, date of death unknown
bride : Marie Therese DE TEMMERMAN, born in Elst 06/07/1821, greengrocer, residing in Brussels same street, widow of Jean GOFFA deceased 06/03/1854
parents : Joseph DE TEMMERMAN, day laborer, residing in Elst, present and consenting and of de late Benoite DE COCK
witnesses :  Nicolas DE GROOT, 68 years old, day laborer  /  Jean Baptiste DE GROOT, 34 years old, messenger  /  Joseph GOFFA, 27 years old, cooper  /  Frederic (…ERIS ?), 32 years old, carpenter  /  all residing in Brussels
The 2th and 3th witness have signed

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a2h/   (marriage VAN NEDERVELDE - BEERNAERT)

cert n°12  Elst 17/11/1820 at 14:00 PM   (marriage publications 5th and 12th November at 10:00 AM)
groom :  Pieter Francies VAN NEDERVELDE, born in Elst, 58 years old, farmer, residing in Elst
parents : Joannes Baptiste VAN NEDERVELDE, deceased in Elst 12/04/1813 and Petronilla De Cuykelier deceased in Elst 20/04/1816
bride : Joanne Catherine BEERNAERT, born in Roborst 21/04/1797, 23 years old, spinner, residing in Elst
parents : Pieter Francies BEERNAERT, deceased in Roborst 15/09/1796 and Veronica DE NOELLE, spinner, residing in Roborst, present and consenting
witnesses : Joannes Baptiste VAN WYMEERSCH, 26 years old, notary clerk, residing in Zottegem  /  Joannes DE VOS, 65 years old, farmer  /  Josephus DE VOS, 40 years old, shopkeeper  /  Pieter Francies VAN WAMBEKE, 30 years old, tailor  /  last three residing in Elst
The bride and her mother are unable to write.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a2i/  (death cert  Pieter Francies VAN NEDERVELDE)

cert n° 3  -  Elst  -  registration date : 21/01/1826 at 11:00 AM
date of death :  Elst 20/01/1826 at 02:00 AM, at home
the deceased : Pieter Francies VAN NEDERVELDE, born in Elst, 65 years old, farmer, residing in Elst, husband of Joanna Catharina BERNAERD, son of Jan Baptiste and Petronella DE KEUKELEIRE
declarants : Joannes Francies DE VOS, 56 years old, policeman and Petrus Antonius (SI…ENS ?), 55 years old, sacristan, both residing in Elst, neighbors of the deceased

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a2j/    (death cert  Joanna Catharina BEERNAERT)

cert n° 8  -  Elst -  registration date : 11/03/1833 at 19:00 PM
date of death :  Elst  11/03/1833 at 10:00 AM, at home
the deceased :  Joanna Catharina BEIRNAERT, 38 years old, spinner, residing in Elst, daughter of Francies and Veronica NOYETTE, wife of Josephus VAN CROMBRUGGE
declarants : Josephus DE VOS, 53 years old, farmer and Francies DE VOS, 63 years old, policeman, both residing in Elst, acquaintances of the deceased

(second marriage of Joanna Catharina Beernaert : Elst 24/11/1826 with Josephus VAN CROMBRUGGE)

goeienacht (belgian time)
Leen