Thomas ROSE - my personal brick wall

[Bherbe]

Hello everyone,

I am trying to push my family tree back beyond my great great grandfather Thomas Rose and his parents George Rose and Sarah Hollins. I was hoping that someone might have some information or just even some advice of other avenues to follow up please. This is what I have so far and also what I can't seem to find! I apologise that this is somewhat of a disorganised list.

I have Thomas Rose's birth certificate. He was born in Old Town, Croydon 29th January 1853. His father is George Rose, a Tailor and his mother Sarah Rose, formerly Hollins. His mother is noted as residing in Old Town Croydon. I found a baptism entry (online) for a Thomas Rose, parents George and Sarah Rose, abode Croydon, profession of father: tailor. Date of baptism 31st January 1853 at St John the Baptist, Croydon.

I checked St John the Baptist (online) register going back and could find no marriage for George Rose and Sarah Hollins (I probably need to double check this). I checked BMD 1837 onwards and found no marriage for George Rose and Sarah Hollins. I checked St John the baptist going forward and back from 1853 and could find no more children registered for this George and Sarah. I could not find an obvious entry for them in the 1851 Croydon (or any other) census and the same for 1861. I have been unable to confirm for certain ANY George and Sarah Rose in any census. The difficulty being I have no real information to test any results against.

Thomas Rose's first son (that I can find) was born in 1885 in Little Chart, Kent (George Rose), his second child in Canterbury 1887 (Henry Thomas) and the remaining children (that I know of) were all born in Deal, Kent. He is on the 1891 census in Deal, Kent. The 1901 census for Deal is missing but I assume he was probably on it! The 1911 census shows Thomas and his "wife" Annie (Ansell) still in Deal. It says they have been married 26 years and had 14 children (11 living, 3 died). They, in fact, were not married until 1924 and were both listed on their marriage certificate as widow and widower. I do not have any confirmed record of Thomas Rose's first marriage or any death of a first wife but have the details for Annie, whose husband died before she had any dealings with Thomas (apparently!). Thomas died Nov 1927 in Deal.

I have baptism records for most of Thomas's children and military records for a number of the boys BUT none that provide any further info or clues to Thomas and his parents. Thomas's occupation is variously listed as tinman/cutler/hawker/marine store dealer and they seemed to move around a lot from address to address in Deal.

I have a Deal newspaper article (April 1916) that states Thomas Rose had formerly served in the Royal West Kent Regiment and that he is a member of the National Reserve - but no further details. There are two Thomas Rose's listed in medal rolls prior to WWI but I have no way to clarify a link to my Thomas. I thought any military papers might give details of his father or earlier address but it doesn't look too hopeful at NA for any records that I could see.

Family "tales" suggest that Thomas may have spent considerable time visiting Guildford, Surrey and that this was potentially secretive (perhaps his first wife?! though how true this is I don't know). There is also talk that Rose might actually have been derived from a Jewish Rosenberg or similar but I wouldn't know where to start with that.

Anyway, this is what I know (in a rather large nutshell) so if anyone has any pointers that would be great. I plan on visiting Croydon archives in a few weeks to explore newspapers etc and will also be taking a trip to Deal to try and gather more clues.

Many thanks

Beverley

[jaywit]

Sarah with Thomas and a daughter Elizabeth age 13 are lodgers in Kent in 1861.

 RG 9; Piece: 520; Folio: 76; Page: 8

Sarah is shown as married, no George there.

[Milliepede]

You may have already ruled this one out but there is a Thomas Rose age 8 lodger in 1861 Westgate Kent with an Elizabeth Rose 13 and a Sarah Rose 58.

Thomas & Elizabeth born Croydon and Sarah born Southampton and married.  58 probably too old unless it should read 38.  All down as lodgers. 

[jaywit]

There is a George Rose age 48  lodger in Croydon in 1861 born Suffolk but his occupation is general labourer, so maybe not him.

[heywood]

Hello and welcome

1851 1601/180/17

Has the same Sarah with daughters Matilda 11yrs and Elizabeth 2 yrs in Croydon. Sarah is married.

Heywood

[jaywit]

If Sarah's age is correct then she was almost 50 when Thomas was born.

[Milliepede]

Yes just seen that 1851.  Matilda down as born Woolwich Kent, Elizabeth down as Bromley Kent.
Matilda should be around in 1841, that might help.

[Bherbe]

Hello, thanks all for the replies. I will work through them all. The Sarah married with children Matilda, Elizabeth and Thomas is the best possible match that I have but could not find a George Rose, Tailor, on his own, anywhere to match and also couldn't work out why George Rose would be missing from each census if he was a tailor (obviously I haven't ruled them out because of this but any possible ideas why would be good). I want to try and look up the baptisms for Matilda and Elizabeth to see if George is listed as a Tailor here. I think I looked back a while ago and found a marriage for Matilda Rose with father George (got very excited) but he was listed as a captain of a merchant vessel (I think, from memory). This started me along lines of perhaps "Tailor" should have been "Sailor" but I was perhaps getting a little desperate at this point! I also thought that all the places mentioned in births in this family could be tied in very closely to shipping and ports. I think I will go through the online baptism registers to see if I can find entries for Matilda and Elizabeth again. I want to be as sure as possible before resorting to ordering birth certificates.

I also noticed that Sarah would have been particularly old to have Thomas but I presume this was still very possible. A search for a Sarah Hollins born in Southampton returned no exciting results but given that she was possibly born 1803, I might have to travel to be sure of the parish register entries. Hollins seems very much a surname of the midlands to north rather than south whenever I have searched.

I will look again at these entries I think - thank you.

[jaywit]

I can't find a Matilda with a mother Sarah that would fit in 1841.

Who actually registered Thomas birth? Was it Sarah or George? Was the person who registered it literate?