Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907

[Neil Todd]

A death recorded for the above "Helsey" possibly.

ELSIE M NICHOLS, FATHER ERNEST A, MOTHER ALICE M, AT BURWOOD NSW REF# 1033/1898

Neil

[majm]

Hi there,

I am surprised that the question of who was Miss Elsie NICHOLS has only arisen now,  and only as a result of the newspaper cutting becoming available via TROVE.    I would have anticipated that the question as to who was Miss Elsie NICHOLS would have arisen back when the earlier researcher obtained Sophia’s 1907 marriage certificate and then researched the names of the witnesses on that document.   Perhaps the document records Elsie as simply as “E NICHOLS”.  and the researcher compiling that 97 page document was not interested in establishing any family relationships in respect of witnesses.   

The various spellings of the surnames is of course understandable, afterall, the early electoral rolls were established by the local police making enquiries and then recording the responses.   

Re Helsey M Nichols, mother Annie A, birth registered Cassilis in 1885, and your question ‘Is “Helsey” a name ? “ ; there was no definitive lists of ‘names’ that were approved for use.   Even in the 1880s there’s many a child whose given names include family surnames (with various spellings), and of course, the index for those 1880s births that you can see at NSW BDM online was not actually commenced until a volunteer project was established in the 1930s. 

So it is possible that Helsey is a mis-read of the entry held by NSW BDM.    Of course, when spoken aloud,  “Helsey” could be  “Elsie”.  Births were registered by the informant providing verbal answers to verbal questions at the rural registrar's office, often located at the local court house, so the spelling is dependent on the deputy registrar's talents. 

Perhaps that birth registration would be a document that should be obtained.   NSW Birth Certs can be quite informative, including details of where the mother was born, and her then age, plus where the baby was born, and the midwife attending the birth (often a female family member in the rural districts).

Cheers,  JM

[sparrett]

MMM... I wonder whether the mother of the child--
 
Birth

REG 23209 Yr 1885,  Helsey M NICHOLS,
Annie A,
 Cassilis

chose to give her daughter the surname of the father  (whom she later married)

Marriage-

REG 2661 Year1897  ELSLEY  Frederick
To  NICHOLLS  Anna
At  ALBURY

Sue

[majm]

Further to the 1885 birth registered Cassilis...

The informant registering the birth does not need to be the child's mother.  The informant was required to state their relationship to the child.  This information is noted in a different section from the details about the child's parents.   So, it was possible for the child's father to register the birth, and be recorded in the lower section as such, even if he was not formally married to the child's mother and therefore the child's birth is not indexed in his name.   There was no space provided for a child's surname on NSW birth registrations until sometime in the late 1960s.

Red post ..... that's a possibility Sue    

Cheers,  JM

[Neil Todd]

Discount my earlier as the Nichols family had other children in Sydney sadly it would seem they lost two of three triplets in 1904 as well as the earlier Elsie in 1898.

Neil

[majm]

The missing one is Ann Agnes Nichols.   This woman appears anachronistically in the old church records born 10 December 1862 baptised 12 July 1864 by Rev Alexander McEwan, abode Denison Town father John Nichols. According to the file,  no birth registration has been found.

May I note that your in laws seem to have located the original parish registers but it seems these entries have not been included in the NSW BDM online indexes. So may I note that the NSW BDM would likely be interested in updating their records.

From their website:  http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html
“Acquiring the Early Church Records
The Registry began acquiring copies of Early Church Records since 1856. Efforts to acquire or copy these registers were undertaken in 1856, 1879 and 1912. In recent years further church registers have been found and copies of their contents forwarded to the Registry for inclusion in the State's records.”

I was one lass who together with a Church Archivist, found that such a register had not been included in the Early Church Records, and subsequently, after quite a number of years have passed, the entries are now on the latest update of the NSW BDM indexes.

There is of course a number of logical explanations for the records not reaching the NSW BDM.... Particularly in the 1860s, the quarterly returns were forwarded in the mail, which of course travelled in the same coaches as the gold.   There were disruptions to these deliveries ..... bushrangers, floods, overturned coaches, etc.    And of course, if the clerks in the Sydney office could not read the scribble on the returns, then these were not in a state to be processed.   So, if other baptisms in the same parish register are also NOT included in the NSW BDM online index, then perhaps the civil registration quarterly returns did not make it to Sydney.

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Births/Baptisms for the girls
Elizabeth NICHOLS Vol 121B, line 4269, 1856

Perhaps another Elizabeth NICHOLS   
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTX4-RYF
Elizabeth NICHOLS, baptised 29 July 1855, C of E, dau of John and Mary
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC3-46T
Elizabeth NICHOLS, born 7 May 1855, baptised 29 July 1855, at Kelso, dau of John and Mary.

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

The missing one is Ann Agnes Nichols.   This woman appears anachronistically in the old church records born 10 December 1862 baptised 12 July 1864 by Rev Alexander McEwan, abode Denison Town father John Nichols.  According to the file,  no birth registration has been found.

I think the following would be the 1862 birth and 1864 baptism for Ann Agnes Nichols, as indexed at NSW BDM.   I am including Elizabeth and Margaret S indexed info too, as it shows the sequence of line numbers leading to Ann A NICHOLS registration.    Civil registrations commenced 1 March 1856, however, the NSW BDM does have quite a number of "V" registrations for many years after civil registrations commenced.

Oops, here they are 
1856 Elizabeth NICHOLS dau of John and Mary Vol 121B line 4269
1858 Margaret S NICHOLS dau of John and Mary  Vol 121B line 4270,
1862 Ann A NICHOLS dau of John and Mary  Vol 121B line 4308



Cheers,  JM

[thetowers]

The missing one is Ann Agnes Nichols.  ...

In the first post.  I said there were 8 Nichols daughters,  and then actually  listed 6. 

She was "missing" from the list of six because she had no known marriage or children.   There is a list here in the file of all of Mary's grandchildren,  and that was the page I was looking at when I copied down the list of daughters and the number of their children,   and Ann Agnes wasn't mentioned on that page at all.  I was not paying enough attention.  Sorry.

The other one was the first Margaret,   who died aged about 6,   and is supposedly buried in the old cemetery at Denison Town.