LFI: RE: Blacksmith Apprentiship terms/contracts/employment, etc

[Mel.D.Lorenzo]

Hello,

I am not new to genealogy in general, but I am new to this site and to researching so far away (where I can't go and find the record myself).

I am an American researching here (primarily) for my best friends family tree and my in-laws.

At the moment (and the reason for this particular post) is that I am looking for the potential father of my best friends' 3x's great grandfather, Joseph Gills.

He was born Aug 1855 in Trewick, Northumberland to Mary Ann Gills and (according to his christening record) John Young, resident of Newton.

In the Christening record, John Young is listed as having the occupation of "smith".  This lead me to look in the 1851 Census of the area for a John Young, born abt the same year as Mary Ann Gills (1833), and working as an apprentice.  This gave me the result of a John Luke Young b. 1833, Northumberland

I did some pushing back and found the family of John Luke (parents: Joseph and Eleanor Young- both of Bramburgh/Brambo.) in the 1841 census and 1861 (wife: Margaret; Ch: Margaret Ann) Durham.

So this lead me to wonder if knowing more about the blacksmith apprenticeship would help my understanding of John Young's movements- and if it is highly possible that he could very well had contact with Mary Ann Gills in the fall/winter of 1854.

Is there anywhere that contracts would be filed by the Blacksmith Master? Any record of payment from one family to another? At what age would an apprenticeship begin and for how long? Typically how long was the journeyman process and would they have to be a master blacksmith to be employed as a colliery blacksmith (the occupation listed for John Luke in the 1861 census)? 

Are there any lists of a guild of some sort?

Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks

[sallyyorks]

Hi there 

If he was a colliery blacksmith it might not have been a formal apprenticeship as such and there may be no records. His work could be anything from farrier to fitter, doing all kinds of metal working jobs. Coal mines employed a number of smiths.

Rootschat topic here about colliery blacksmiths
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=354315.0


These websites might have some info
Durham Mining Museum Website
http://www.dmm.org.uk/mindex.htm

Coal Mine History Resource Centre
(have linked page with map that might be relevant, click on red squares)
http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/maps/cumb_north/index.html

[Ruskie]

Using your example I have done a quick search of the 1851 census for John Young born +/- 1833 and living in Northumberland and there were 49 results, and is not unfeasible that John could have been even more than 5 years older than Mary Ann so the number would increase.

Just because he was a Smith does not follow that he would be listed as an apprentice on the census even if he was one in 1851.

Because he was a resident of Newton does not follow that he was born there either. There are several Newton's in Northumberland (Newton by the Sea, Newton Hall, Newton Park, Newton Underwood etc ... http://www.genuki.bpears.org.uk/NBL/Gazetteer/NBL_N.html). It might be worth checking the proximity of all of these to see which is closest to Trewick where Joseph was born - or the place where Mary Ann and her parents lived if different from Trewick).

Have you considered checking bastardy records for the area in case there is mention of Mary Ann and John?

Having said all of that I note that Joseph and Eleanor are living in Newton in 1851 (he is a Police Officer), Mary Ann named her son Joseph (though why she would name her son after his grandfather if she was not married to John seems a bit odd, so the name could be a coincidence). Have you followed Mary Ann and her family through the censuses to see where they are living?

In 1851 John Luke the apprentice is 17 and living in Bywell - his place of birth looks to be Whitingham. He is living with Thomas Straffon(?) who is a Blacksmith but some of the occupation description is not clear - perhaps one of the words is 'Engine'? And it says he employs two apprentices. This may be a clue to the sort of Smith this John Young is.

I think you need something more to prove/disprove that you have found the correct John Young.

I'm sure others will be able to offer you more constructive ideas.

[Mel.D.Lorenzo]

Oh I am quite aware that there must be more to prove or disprove. But it is scattered and records confused if I attempt several possibilities at once.  So this particular John Young is my focus at the moment.

I found it interesting that John Young was present at the Christening of his son (and as such in the record Joseph is given the surname of Young even though his birth registration he is given the surname of Gills- his mother's).

I have never heard of bastardy records. What information do those provide and how do I access them?

As for the choosing of the name Joseph-- Mary Ann had a brother and an uncle named Joseph as well as the brother of her grandfather, so I would guess she named her son for one of them rather than for John's father.

[Ruskie]

A little information here, but it doesn't seem like the bastardy angle will be fruitful:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NORTHUMBRIA/1997-08/0872945026
(if you google bastardy records Northumberland you will get a lot of hits)

Have you seen the 'originals' of both the christening and birth records?
 

[Grandies]

Not sure how this will help find John Young, but May Ann married William Dye in the Hexham registration district in 1858. In the 1861 census they are at Thornbrough. 2 yr old John Gills is shown as "wifes son" born St John Lee, which is a parish of Acomb, near Hexham.

Joseph is living with his grandmother Jane Gills and Aunt at Stanton, near Morpeth.
Although his grandfather Robert Gills is not on this census, Jane is shown as married not widowed.

[Mel.D.Lorenzo]

Grandies,


Um, not sure you have the right Mary Ann?  Could you tell me where you found the marriage record?  Her parents are Robert and Jane Gills. Joseph's birth registration has him born in Trewick Aug 1855. In 1861 he would have been six years old.

[Mel.D.Lorenzo]

Rus,

Hey sorry I missed your last post.  Yes, I have the record for his birth registration.  I found the general index for his christening on Ancestry and then went to FreeReg (Search "Joseph Young" "1855" and "Northumberland")and found the transcribed entry (have not seen the original entry)

It was there that I found that he was Christened at St. Andrews, Bolam Parish.  It was there that it was noted that John Young was a smith  and that his mother was a single woman from Trewick.

[Grandies]

Hello again,

I found a marriage for Mary Ann Gills in the December quarter of 1858 at Hexham Northumberland.
One of the 2 possible spouses quoted was William Dye
England&Wales Marriage Index, Volume 10B Page 333  Line 34.

In the 1861 census quoted previously, the 2 years old "wifes son" is JOHN Gills, a different child.
William and Mary Ann Dye, are living at Thornbrough, District 7, Northumberland.Household 55, Piece 3858 Folio 76 Page 13.

6 year old Joseph, shown as born Trewick, Northumberland, is with Mary Anns mother, Jane at Stanton, Northumberland. Morpeth registration district 6 Household 14, Piece 3870 Folio 62 Page 3.