Dating Oil Portraits of English gentlemen - Harry and John(?) NEWTON

[mebow]

Is there anyone who could help me with era and identity of (2) very large oil paintings of English gentlemen.  Believed to be from 18th or 19th century, family historians have indicated the subjects belong to the family of Rev John Newton of (Amazing Grace fame).  Paintings were inherited from estate of Sidney Rodman, d 1938 in Australia, son of Sarah Jane Newton b 1823 dau of Thomas Newton, Wesleyan minister and Elizabeth (Reeve).  Believed to be work of a well known portraitist of the day.  Are they worth the expense and trouble of expert advice?  I would be happy to hear   

[Ruskie]

Welcome to rootschat mebow. 

You have forgotten to post the images.

[sparrett]

mebow,
Where is the will of Sidney RODMAN?

I can see a will on the index for his wife Henrietta nee SHORE but I cannot locate a record for Sidney, though he seems to have been a well-known business man in Victoria from before the 1920's

Perhaps there was a description of the paintings in his will if one exists.  Do you know?

Sue

[mebow]

There is no mention of the portraits in any will as far as I know, thanks for your suggestion.

[sparrett]

Henrietta out lived her husband, dying at the age of  78 in 1945. (Reg 5983)

Were the paintings retrieved after her death, or immediately after the death of her husband?

I am certainly not in a position to advise on paintings and painters, but it would be helpful to know whether the works were were Australian or from elsewhere.

(EDIT) Just to clarify what I mean here.
Although the subjects were of English gentlemen, were they certainly also painted in England?

Is there a suggestion the men Thomas NEWTON and John NEWTON were brothers?


Sue

[Ruskie]

You are a little vague mebow.

As well as the answers to Sue's questions, I would be interested to know if there is a signature on the paintings. If the painter was "well known" then the paintings would be signed. This might be the key to whether or not they are of any value and be an indicator of dates, origin etc.

Which "family historians" have indicated the identity of the subjects are Newtons?

When you mention going to the "trouble and expense of expert advice" are you seeking this in order to sell them? Are you related to Rodman or did you purchase these paintings?

It would help if we could see the paintings ....

[mebow]

Sorry about that.  My personal knowledge of the works is that they were handed down through the family, last owner was a 95 year old, now dec.  She had noted on the back of portrait that it was "Harry Newton, son of Captain Newton's second marriage".  She received them from her mother who was given the paintings by Sidney and Henrietta Rodman, who had no relatives in Australia.  The Rodmans had brought the paintings to Australia from England.  They were always referred to as "the two uncles", with a connection to John Newton of Amazing Grace fame (but no resemblance to him from the only portrait that I've seen on the web), by well known portraitist (assumed to be English) and of some value.  A family genealogist thoroughly researched the Rodmans back through Sidney Rodman's mother Sarah Jane Newton's line.  Sarah Jane was dau of Thomas a Wesleyan minister and Elizabeth (Reeve) Newton, marr in Wiltshire in 1817.  Sarah Jane was a painter and her will gave her son and executor (Sidney Rodman) option of buying paintings and prints.   There is no mention in her father's will of such things.
My interest is that I'm currently custodian of the art works and hoping to discover their identity, as far as value is concerned that's up to the family.  There is no visible signature on either portrait, but perhaps they've been re framed at some stage in their life.  They haven't been taken out of their frames as I feel this should be performed by an expert.
I will try to reduce size of portrait/s to submit.  Sorry for being inept, but I'm a learner (very slow at times).  Marg. 

 
 
 

[Ruskie]

That is very interesting information Marg (and you are by no means inept  .

I would be still be searching for some kind of signature - yes maybe a reframing has obscured a signature. I would go over it with a torch if I were you, especially in the bottom right corner, in case you can make out some writing. If they are not signed then perhaps the paintings were done by an amateur rather than a professional?

I would think that any framing shop should be able to remove the frames for you - see if there is one in your local area who specialises in old paintings or oils. Removing the frame should not cause any damage to the canvas as it is just 'balancing' within the frame.

So am I right in thinking that you are trying to find a link between the Rodmans and the Newtons? It seems there may be one since the Rodmans were in possession of the paintings.

Can I just confirm that the annotations on the back of the paintings were made more recently by someone who was not related to the Newtons or the Rodmans?

Keep in mind that sometimes stories may have changed over the generations yet still have a grain of truth.

[mebow]

Thanks for the suggestion about framers.

Yes it would be good to actually prove a connection to the famous Rev John Newton.  I had read that he remarried and had children who would have been half siblings of his first child John and were named Henry and Tomasina or Thomasina.  The Rodman research was leading in that direction, but Church records had been destroyed by fire.  I wondered if putting a request on RootsChat may unearth someone with answers.

The note re name was in the handwriting of the 95 year old lady whose mother had received the paintings as a gift from the Rodmans as they had no relatives in Australia.  She was a very reliable and precisely accurate lady who had been involved in researching several books on local history.  I have no doubt that what she wrote was what she believed to be true.  Her mother died after 1965 and handed down the verbal provenance of the portraits as was known to the Rodmans.   

I will try to attach a picture of one of the Uncles, I've tried to reduce the image for transmission.  May have to return to the previous section to do that.  Harry is still in jpeg that has refused to leave my outbox as it's too large. 

Many thanks again, Marg.