Author Topic: Parents of William Flanner  (Read 12509 times)

Offline RayWitt

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Parents of William Flanner
« on: Tuesday 11 August 15 08:06 BST (UK) »
William (Ripon) Flanner married Hannah Howard 9th Sep 1884 in Sandhurst Victoria, both aged 33.
The marriage certificate states that William was born "At Sea" and his parents are George Flanner and Jane X.
The only listings I can find for George Flanner is a convict record departing England 1831 arriving Port Jackson 1831 aboard the Georgiana, and a George Flanner (Jr?) who was accidentally shot and killed in 1888 at the age of 30 (possibly a brother).
On William's death extract from 1923 it states his mother was Eliza Green.  Not sure how accurate that is (I don't have the certificate just info from the Vic BDM search).
If the George Flanner convict is his father then he didn't have William until he was 40 yrs old, and William being born "At Sea" seems unlikely if they were already in Australia.

Would anyone please be able to inform me if there is any likelihood of some sort of birth record for William that would tell me exactly who his parents are?

Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,385
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: Parents of William Flanner
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 11 August 15 08:54 BST (UK) »
Some questions from info on that 1884 mc ....

What occupation for William   
What occupation for William's father, George FLANNER
What status/condition for William, if previously married, when/where
What was his then usual residence?
What names for the witnesses?
And the usual info found on Vic BDM marriage certs (denomination, etc)

Some further questions ...
From William's dc you would learn 'how long in the colonies' .... while that information is of course not first hand info, and therefore relies on the informant's knowledge, it should give you some clues .... particularly as to which colonies and how long in each colony.

With a birth at sea ..... in early 1850s, it can be difficult to find the birth.... Afterall, even the parish clerks caught gold fever, and civil registration commenced in March 1853 in the colony of Victoria (NSW civil registrations commence 1856). 

You don't mention if you have looked for a baptism record, but can you confirm which denomination for the 1884 marriage as that may give you a clue as to which denomination to look for a baptism...

Have you checked birth certificates for William's children .....perhaps his birthplace may be mentioned there ..... 


Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,385
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: Parents of William Flanner
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 11 August 15 09:01 BST (UK) »
May I mention that NSW State Records online index has entries for several chaps named as Mr Flanner (no initials) in the period 1849 - 1852   
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=43

Also there's
http://marinersandships.com.au/1849/03/102mir.htm

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline cupoflife

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,578
  • Australia
    • View Profile
Re: Parents of William Flanner
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 11 August 15 09:03 BST (UK) »
On William's death extract from 1923 it states his mother was Eliza Green.  Not sure how accurate that is (I don't have the certificate just info from the Vic BDM search).

Obit of William Flanner aged 72 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/186426471
Adding Obit of Hannah Flanner http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/176987244
Wills at PROV http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54


Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,385
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: Parents of William Flanner
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 11 August 15 10:00 BST (UK) »
I wonder who was this George Flanner, and what his Dad wanted him for

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/196554534 Leader 17 June 1876

oops, more  :-[

And I wonder if this George Flanner and his wife were connected to our OP's William ?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/196589735 Ovens and Murray Advertiser  4 March 1875.  And if Mrs Flanner recovered from her hospitalisation....

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline RayWitt

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: Parents of William Flanner
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 12 August 15 07:25 BST (UK) »
Hmm.  There is a record of Jane Flanner dying at the age of 40yrs, at Albury NSW in 1875 (reg. no. 4352/1875).  This matches the time period when her husband George was visiting her in hospital, and had his money stolen (in the article from the Ovens and Murray Advertiser). 
Also, perhaps George (Snr) was writing to William's brother George (Jr. - who would have been 18 at the time) to tell him his mother was unwell? George Jr is the one who was shot and died at 30yrs old.
On William's marriage certificate it has a note written up the side saying he "did not remember his mother's maiden name", hence the name Jane X, which would support the fact she had already died.  I would assume his father George would have known his wife's maiden name and would have informed them if he was present at the wedding.
There is also a death record for a George Flanner (assuming it is the same as convict records) who died in Victoria 1891 at the age of 80.
Their religion was Church of England but I'm not sure where I should be looking for a baptism record for William (or if one would still exist from 1851/1852).

I think the ship records may be from a brother of George - James Flanner and his wife Elizabeth.  James was a merchant and he lived in Port Albert, Victoria and I think I recall reading in the past where he traveled between places by boat (perhaps buying and/or selling goods).

Which certificate would hold the most valuable information re: parents, birth, marriage, arrival, etc (assuming they are the right people), Jane's death certificate or George's death certificate?
I can't find a marriage certificate.



Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,385
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: Parents of William Flanner
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 13 August 15 03:45 BST (UK) »
George FLANNER arrived 27 July 1831 to Sydney.  He was aged 18, and was of the Roman Catholic religion.  He was not married.  His native place was Essex, England and he was a shoemaker.  He had been tried in London, for stealing a musical box.  This trial was 6 January 1831.  He had no previous convictions, and his sentence was 7 years transportation.  He was 5 ft 3 inches, ruddy, fair complexion, hazel grey eyes, light brown hair.    He received a ToL in 1836 (36/1783) and allowed to remain in the District of Invermein.  The ToL confirms he arrived on the Georgiana in 1831.  He received his Certificate of Freedom 17 March 1838.   (CF 38/0198, ToL 361783) 

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-convict-records/indexes-to-convict-records


On William's marriage certificate it has a note written up the side saying he "did not remember his mother's maiden name", hence the name Jane X, which would support the fact she had already died.

 I would assume his father George would have known his wife's maiden name and would have informed them if he was present at the wedding.


There is also a death record for a George Flanner (assuming it is the same as convict records) who died in Victoria 1891 at the age of 80.


Their religion was Church of England but I'm not sure where I should be looking for a baptism record for William (or if one would still exist from 1851/1852).

Church of England baptisms .... in New South Wales you can usually locate a reliable transcription of these records via the free to search online index at familysearch.org   You can also actually view the early church records on film held at various public libraries and at NSW State Records Office and at NSW State Library and at family history centres too.    C of E baptismal records should be extant.  They were recorded in at least two different registers.   You need to remember though that Church registers are not public records. 

To save you going back over the various Resources Boards at RChat, here's a live link to familysearch.   https://familysearch.org/   Go to their search option, and then to Research by location, and then select Australia. Hopefully you will be at the following link https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1770729

I am not familiar with the administrative practices for the mid 19th Century Roman Catholic denomination in NSW or Victoria, so I hesitate to offer any advice. 

Re the information that you read on marriage registrations.  I can assure you that in respect of C of E marriages, and likely for all other denominations, the clergy interview the prospective couple in the weeks prior to the marriage.  The information is not gleaned on the day of the marriage, and therefore you cannot determine who were the members of the congregation who attended the ceremony, except to note that the official witnesses attended.  So, William would have been asked for his mum's details by the clergyman prior at an interview held prior to the day of the marriage.  The clergy has then recorded in the margin that the groom "did not remember his mother's maiden name". 

I am not seeing how you are determining that the  George on the Georgiana in 1831 is William's dad.... I just cannot join those dots.....

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,385
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: Parents of William Flanner
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 13 August 15 04:44 BST (UK) »
A Protestant FLANNER arrived Sydney in the 1830s...

William FLANNER, arrived 6 Jan 1833 on the Mary (4).   Aged 26 years, read and write, Protestant, Single of Essex, England, a groom/indoor servant.  He had been tried London 5 Jan 1832 for stealing handkerchiefs, it was a first conviction, sentenced to 7 years transportation.  He was 5 ft 2 1/2 inches, sallow complexion, brown eyes, Dark Brown hair.  His ToL was in 1837, and he was allowed to remain in the Parramatta district.  (ToL 37/0354).   He is listed on the 1837 General Muster as assigned to Richard Jones.    Also assigned to Richard Jones was a lass named Anna MEASEY aged 24 who arrived on the Mary in 1835 ....

NSW BDM has a marriage registered at St James C of E registry in late December 1837.  It is indexed as Hannah MEASEY and William FLANNER.  Line 1455 of Volume 21.    Hannah and Anna are interchangeable. 

Cheers,  JM

 
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline RayWitt

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: Parents of William Flanner
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 13 August 15 09:27 BST (UK) »
The surname FLANNER in Australia is not common.

I believe the William Flanner who married Hannah Measey was related to the William I am researching - most likely an uncle, brother to George ?(but it is still part of the puzzle). I have the story of their running a drinking establishment in Sydney prior to it being taken over by Tattersal's (as in the lottery) and also the Old White Hart hotel, corner of Bourke and Spring Sts Melbourne, which is now part of the Windsor Hotel. Would be great to be able to claim with conviction that they were distant relatives!
My guess for William's father George being the convict was merely a case of same name, right time period. It seems odd that he would state RC as his religion, as Flanner is an English name (from Essex region) rather than Flannery which would be Irish I would guess, and more likely to be RC. I will have to dig out the digital files I have of his convict papers to confirm his religion, because as you say, if he was RC then it would not be likely to be him.