Brick Wall Help - Blamé and Moore families 1700s City of London/Southwark area

[jonwicken]

Hi I wonder if anyone might perhaps please be kind enough to be able to put a fresh pair of eyes to a brick wall I am currently experiencing.

My ancestor was John Thomas Moore (1780-1862) who was a Waterman who was born in and lived his whole life in the Southwark area. He married Jane Hemmings in Greenwich in 1800 and from 1812 until his death lived in Pitt's Place, Bankside in Southwark.

His baptism in 1780 at St John Horsleydown (confirmed as his from his waterman binding) shows that his parents were George and Jane Moore. There are three other children of theirs baptised in the same church as him:

1776 Ann Elizabeth Moore   
1782 William Cox Moore
1784 Elizabeth Moore

Wile John Thomas' 1780 baptism does not give an occupation for the father, the above three do and show that George Moore was a baker.

The middle name of the above son of Cox enabled me to find a 1775 marriage and marriage allegation for a George Moore and a Jane Cox. The signatures of George match with his as a witness to his son John Thomas' marriage and the marriage license gives his occupation as a baker. So this is the marriage of George and Jane.

This shows George Moore was a resident of St Martin in the Fields, Westminster, where they married in November 1775, while Jane Cox was from St Olave Southwark. After their marriage they  evidently settled in her area than his.

What has rather thrown me until recently is that there are two further children baptised to a George and Jane Moore at nearby St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey. These are:

1789 Jenny Moore
1792 Henry Blame Moore

It would of course seem these were later children and they had moved parishes. However here the occupation of George on both baptisms is given as shoemaker. I therefore assumed that this was a different George and Jane Moore.

Recently though, having seen someone else's tree on ancestry, it turns out that Jenny (also known as Jane who married John Loader in 1810) and Henry Blame Moore both lived in Pitt's Place when they had children baptised in the 1810s.

This was where John Thomas Moore was living and it seems far too coincidental to assume that the children of two different George and Jane Moores lived in the same small street. It therefore now evidently appeared George Moore had been a baker, but at some point between 1784 and 1789 he became a shoemaker. 

There is another son born to the couple in 1778 at St George the Martyr Southwark, Surrey in George Hemming Moore. No occupation is here given.

So we therefore have the following children born to George Moore and Jane Cox who married in 1775:

1776 Ann Elizabeth Moore. Appears to have married Luke Moore in 1799 at St George the Martyr Southwark. They had two children baptised at Streatham in the early 1800s but an Ann Elizabeth was baptised 23 May 1777 in Croydon so I wonder if this is in fact the woman who married in 1799. If it her thugh then who was Luke Moore? A relative perhaps?   
1778 Richard Hemming Moore. Unknown what happened to him but perhaps the witness to his brother Henry's marriage in 1814 as the George Moore signature differs to the three known examples of his father's
1780 John Thomas Moore. A Waterman who Married Jane Hemmings in Greenwich in 1800. Died in 1862 at Pitt's Place and probate granted with effects being under Ł1,500.
1782 William Cox Moore. A Waterman who died in 1820 and at the time of his death was a resident of Jacob Street in Bermondsey. This enabled me to identify an 1821 burial of a George Moore at the same address as his father's.
1784 Elizabeth Moore. No idea what happened to her.
1789 Jenny/Jane Moore. As Jane Moore she married John Loader in 1810 at St Mary Newington. Died in 1857.
1792 Henry Blame Moore. Married Frances Burbridge in 1814 at Newington and had two children. Died in 1879.

Given the gap between Elizabeth and Jane, I assume there as another pregnancy in 1786 or 1787 but I have not been able to find a baptism or burial to prove this.

Three of these six children had been given surnames as family names and I hoped that this may give clues to the parents of George Moore and Jane Cox.

William Cox Moore got his name from his mother. However the other two names I have yet to place the connection. Certainly the middle name of Richard Hemming Moore born in 1778 makes me wonder if his brother John Thomas Moore in 1800 married a cousin as she was called Jane Hemmings, born in Rotherhithe as daughter of Richard Hemmings.

I have yet to find with certainty a baptism for Richard Hemmings but from the names given to his children, he could be the Richard Hemmings born 2 July 1742 and bapt 4 July 1742 at Westminster, son of William Hemmings & Eleanor. George Moore was a resident at Westminster at the time of his 1775 marriage so a possibility yet to be fully explored.

[jonwicken]

Then we move onto George and Jane's youngest child Henry Blame Moore born in 1792. Where did the surname Blame come from? It is a very unusual surname. A note on an ancestry tree made a mention of a William Henry Blame who in the 1790s lived in the same area of the Moores.

I therefore set about looking at him and other people with the Blame surname. It is very rare in the London area and in the UK and it soon became apparent why. For William Henry Blame was in fact baptised in a Huguenot Church in London in 1753 as Guillaume Hanry Blamé.

He was therefore from a French Protestant family and it raised the interesting possibility that somehow George Moore and Jane Cox could have had a Huguenot connection themselves. I already have Huguenot ancestry on another line and would love to see if it could be in another branch of my lineage too.

William Henry Blame was a resident in the Southwark area from about 1783 when his daughter was baptised in the area and so was in the right area as George and Jane Moore. Interestingly, some tax records appear to name him just as Henry Blame, so is that what he was known as and why George and Jane named their son Henry Blame Moore?

William Henry Blame is known to have been the son of Pierre/Peter Blamé and his wife Marie. I know that Pierre had a first wife named Ann Galliard who he married in 1741 and married a Marie between 1746 and 1750 although I have yet to find the marriage.

Pierre Blamé is known from burial records and his son's apprenticeship record to have been a resident of Bermondsey from 1749 to 1767. This location would make me assume that if George Moore or Jane Cox were related to the Blamé family then it as probably through the Cox line as she was a resident of Southwark at the time of her marriage in 1775. This is of course speculation.

This is what I know about Pierre Blamé's family:

First Wife, married in 1741 at the French Chapel Savoy, Strand:
Anne Gallard\Guillard\Galliard
bef 1723 – 1746\50

Children with First Wife:
Marie\Mary Blamé\Blame
1741 – 1749

Margueritte Blamé
1742 – 1743

Samuel Blamé\Blamey
1745 – 1745

Samuel Blamé\Blame
1746 –

Second Wife, married 1746 to 1750:
Marie\Mary Blame\?Martin (Maiden name given as Blame on one child's baptism but if Marthe is her daughter then this incorrectly names the mother as Marthe too but gives maiden name as Martin.)
bef 1731 – aft 1766

John Blame
1750 –

Guillaume Hanry\William Henry Blamé\Blame
1753 – 1804

?Marthe Blamé (as stated above the motehr is named as Marthe Martin, not Marie)
1756 –

Marianne\Mary Ann Blame\Groves
1758 –

Jeanne\Jane Blame\Whayman
1759 –

Susanna Blome
1766 –

Possible child:
Mary Blame\Baily (married Henry Baily in Bermondsey in 1775)
bef 1757 –

I have yet to find Pierre's burial so not sure when he died but he was alive when son William Henry was apprenticed in 1767.

As for William Henry Blame he was married three times and these are the wives and children of his I have found out about:

First wife, married in 1773:
Ann Jane unknown\Rudd\Blame (a widow)
Bef 1752 – bef 1781

Child with first wife:
James Thomas Blame
1777 –

Second wife, married in 1781
Sarah 'Sally' Row\Blame
bef 1751 – 1796

Children with second wife:
William Henry Blame
1781 – 1786

Patty Blame\Eglintine
1783 – aft 1823

?Sarah Blame
1784 – 1784

Third wife, married in 1797 St Giles Camberwell,
Martha Mackey Moore
c1758/1776 – 1819 (appears to be the Martha Blame buried aged 47 in St Benet Paul´s Wharf, City of London so born c1771/2)

Children with third wife:
Sarah Priscilla Blame
1801 –

Elizabeth Frances Blame
1803 – 1820

Possible daughter born to either first or second wife:
Eleanor Blame\Robinson married 1803 in Bermondsey in to Richard Robinson
bef c1785 –

What is interesting about his third wife is that she was called Martha Mackey Moore. Was she related to George Moore? Unfortunately I cannot find a baptism for her

William Henry Blame died in Whitechapel in 1804.

I had a look to see if anyone else, like Henry Blame Moore, was given a middle name of Blame and I did in fact find one...

A John Blame Strong was baptised in Horsleydown, Southwark, in 1797 as the son of John Strong and Judith Ewines. They married in 1771 in Bermondsey. I have tried to see if I can connect them to the Blamé family but haven't been able to.

Judith Ewines was baptised in Rotherhithe in 1753 as the daughter of James Ewines and Mary Gillam who married in St George in the East in 1748, but that is all I know.

So as you can see from my lengthy message I have quite a few Brick Walls I need to try and break down. I realise I have rambled far longer than I intended to, so if you have reached the end of this message, thank you! If anyone can look at anything here and come with something to help find out more about these families I would be most grateful.

With thanks and kind regards,
Jon

[DavidG02]

Hi Jon

I would like to point out that while your conclusions about the Blame name could be correct as to a familial connection, that connection could well be financial, spiritual or commercial. ie Blame may be a sponsor or godparent of one of the children, he may be a business partner or he may well have apprenticed one of the children

But you certainly have down a power of research and I wish you well 

[jonwicken]

Hi David,

Thanks for the reply. Yes indeed, I had thought about this and that William Henry Blamé could have somehow helped out George Moore and so he named a son after him.

Generally though I have found that surnames as a middle name are usually family connections. Although as you say this is not neccessarily so.

I am just hoping that someone here might be able to offer something which might link the families. Over hopeful though, I think. But the digging shall continue!

Thanks,
Jon

[jomoorebaggy]

My 3rd Great Grandfather is John Thomas Moore (1780) I am working on ancestory comparing the information I have in my dna and trees to compare with some of this information!  I look forward to finding out more family history!

[jonwicken]

My 3rd Great Grandfather is John Thomas Moore (1780) I am working on ancestory comparing the information I have in my dna and trees to compare with some of this information!  I look forward to finding out more family history!

Hi, sorry somehow I missed this message. I assume that as you are a Moore that you descend from either John George Moore (1807–1886) or George Richard Moore (1809–1883)? I descend from his daughter Eliza Caroline Moore|Smith (1824–1888).

[jomoorebaggy]

Hello! Yes, I am a Moore from:

George Richard Moore (2nd ggf)
1809–1883
BIRTH 10 APR 1809 • Southwark, Surrey, England
DEATH 18 JUN 1883 • Wandsworth, Surrey

Leopold Jones Moore (ggf)
1874–1958
BIRTH 17 APR 1874 • Wandsworth, London
DEATH 12 MAY 1958 • St James Hospital, Balham, Surrey

George Bernard Moore (gf)
1915–1988
BIRTH 26 OCT 1915 • Wandsworth , Surrey, England
DEATH JUN 1988 • Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, England

I just went thru my ancestry and see Eliza Caroline Moore (as my 2nd great grand aunt)
I have relatives off of her so you must be in there somewhere!

1824–1888
BIRTH 24 DEC 1824 • 6 pitts place, bankside, st saviour, Southwark, Surrey, England
DEATH APR 1888 • Lambeth, London, United Kingdom

Are you on ancestry? I would love to try and connect the dots as I am stuck at around my 5th ggparents and unsure if it is correct.

Thanks so much for the info!!

[jomoorebaggy]

I am going to print out all of your incredible information and cross-check with my ancestry to see how it all lines up and double check my work and see if I can connect more dots!

[jonwicken]

Hello and great to hear from you.

I have replied to your message on ancestry.

Jon