Henry Jones baptism in Llanartheny about 1810

[ianocon]

I'm concluding this baptismal record doesn't exist and hence I should give up searching for it!
I just want to check someone doesn't have info that would encourage me to keep trying because I want to get back to his father's (David Jones) generation and getting Henry' baptismal info seems the only way to do that.
I got help from "osprey" a couple of years ago tracing the marriage of Henry to Ann Davies dec qtr 1873 llanelly vol 11a pg 1346. I got the certificate which showed his father was David Jones, farmer, deceased. henry is in 41,51,61,71,81,91 censuses with ages suggesting he was born in 1810 +- 2 yrs and always in Llanartheny. I followed "osprey's" suggestion  to look through parish records and can see on FreeBMD that Parish baptismal records for the period 1740 to 1862 have been transcribed but on searching can find no reference to henry jones.
There is a family (head David Jones) in llanartheny in the 41,51,61 censuses with David about the right age to have fathered Henry and that is the only David Jones family to appear in those censuses as I look through all the dwellings in llanartheny but there seems no way to confirm the connection.
Does anyone have family history which traces this line or does anyone have a thought on what I may have missed in trying to trace the baptism. Help would be much appreciated.

[Pejic]

What occupation(s) did David have in the 41, 51, 61 censuses?
Are the people David was with in 41, 51, 61 still findable in 71?
Have you tried neighbouring parishes for Henry's baptism?
Did David have any children with him in 41, 51, 61? can you find their baptisms?
Don't give up - put it on the back burner for 5 years - amazing amounts of information appear then.
Good luck.

[despair]

This is stretching things a bit but.....
I wondered if perhaps the baptism had been registered under a patronymic name i.e.Henry David.
There is a Henry David Llanarthne 1810,but he is the son of a David Thomas.
There is,however,an 1804 baptism with a father David John(and mother Elizabeth) at Dan yr Allt,Llanarthne.David John could otherwise be known as David Jones,much as Mary David is aka Mary Davies.This date would make a little more sense re his marriage

http://freereg2.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5510955ce93790f8ad70656c?search_id=55eed0fef493fdf9f9000977

Curiously,there is an 1837 will at NLW for David Jones,farmer,Danyrallt in which he names his sons William and David and" his wife,Elizabeth Jones' children,Thomas,Henry and Elizabeth."
This David Jones is given elsewhere as being born in 1745!

Somewhere I can' t find again at the moment,I thought I had found a relevant record for what was transcribed as Daugallt,Llanarthne,which I suspect is the same place.

Added:I've found it now -it's the FreeReg record of the 1837 death.

Regards
Roger

[despair]

Piling speculation upon speculation, if your Henry was to be the one related to the family at Danyrallt it is likely  he would be the grandson of the David of the will i.e. son of his son David.
Occupation of the property in 1841 doesn't help as it is Thomas and his wife Priscilla who are there.
There is a will at NLW  for a David Jones,1854,Parkydaunaw,Llanarthne,in which amongst others,he nominates a granddaughter Mary,daughter of his son Henry.The 1851 census gives this David as born 1780,reasonable for the son of David(1745) and father of Henry(1804).
As I say this is pure speculation as there is as yet no proof of any relationship between these records,but worth pursuing?

Regards
Roger

[despair]

One possible flaw in the argument is that Henry David's mother is given as Elizabeth in 1804,while the wife of David Jones,Parkydaunaw,in 1851 is Mary.It would require a further marriage.

Regards
Roger

[despair]

Apologies,I misread the 1851 census,David is a widower and Mary is an unmarried servant.In 1841 at Parkydeunaw David's wife is -Elizabeth!

Regards
Roger

[ianocon]

Wow! Thanks - there is a lot to follow up here. Pejic first!
First, this David Jones lived at Wern in llanartheny in 41,51,61 age 60,69,79 (so born abt 1780-82)and is always a farmer (of 96 acres in 61). His wife Mary is 48,59,70 in the census. (so b.1790-93.
What's certain (from Henry's marriage certs) is father David is a farmer, living in 1827, decd in1873
Hence the possible connection.
I can't find David in 1871 (age would be about 90)  so it's possible he died in the 1860's but I found that WERN the farm was then occupied by a William Michael so David had definitely moved on or died.
Yes, This David had children in 41 & 51. Emiah 12 & 20, David 10 & 20, John 8 and Mary 5 & 15.
No children left in 61
It's a good suggestion to look for births - might get me to their mother.
Intriguingly, in 1871  there is a David Jones in llanartheny, of right age to be the son living at WERNFach in the village (is it just a coincidence that there is a house name connection?). However disappointingly he was born in Llanfijnydd not llanartheny so perhaps all just coincidence.
I'm not sure how to get to neighbouring parishes to look for henry's baptism but will think on that.
Despair - thanks for your comments it is going to take me some time to respond to them and I live in NZ and have to go out for the day now so it will probably be tomorrow
Thanks again
Ian

[Pejic]

Places surrounding Llanarthne:
Nantgaredig
Llanegwad
Capel Dewi
Pont-ar-Gothi (this might be a bridge rather than a village/hamlet)
Felindre Dryslwyn
Maesyrbont
Nant-y-caws

The 'fach' suffix probably just means 'little'

good luck.

[despair]

A couple of strands:-
Have you assumed that Henry's marriage is to Mary David/Davies because it is in Llanarthne(y),or do you have baptismal records for the children(1841 census at Penyrheol)to match?Or do you have a birth certificate post 1837 registration chart.The only reason I ask is that the children in the 1851 census are all given born Llannon and the very few near matching records possibly suggest a mother named Mary Harri(e)s.If this proves an issue obtaining the birth certificate for Eleazer,1843(as such a unique name) should settle the matter.

I have some more data re Wern but it is at the moment inconclusive.
There are wills at NLW for Wern-Thomas Michael(1815) and John Jones(1830)
This John Jones burial gives 1752-1830 and his will gives a wife Rachel and son David.The marriage could be 1780 to Rachael Rees and possibly a birth for David 1782 in line with  expectation.
The 1851 census gives his wife as born 1792,just about OK  for a birth for Henry circa 1810.
By the way in 1871 there is also David Jones at Wern(as well a at WernFach).He looks like the son as he names a daughter Emiah as his father does.

Regards
Roger