Gipsy Dan Boswell

[panished]

This is my 999th post. 

 I would like for anyone who ever Chance's this way to learn about Richards writings, i do not know Richard but at the beginning of these posts Richard just popped up and helped me, he wrote about a small part of the history of the Boswells and other Gipsy's if you read through the posts at the beginning of this thread you will read several from Richard, I looked at how he searched the National Newspaper Archives and found amazing story's, so i copied him and self learned to search myself. Richard i would say searchers for honest truth for all truth is seldom honest yet to search through honest eyes is a feat seldom reached i am sure he is always updating his findings and correcting at length through newer works yet to be published. So this my 999th post is wrote here for Richard to highlight his writing's and ongoing studies.


richarde1979
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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #107 on: Monday 11 June 18 08:56 BST (UK) »
"The Y haplo tests are much more reliable than the 'ethnicity' or 'MTdna tests', which are just too vague or unreliable"

I tend to agree with you on the ethnicity tests in general Sally, though I tested with LivingDNA, and it was about 85% acccurate compared to my paper research. It was very accurate with English counties, but not so great identifying regions outside those (Ireland, Scotland, France etc) so I think the companies are slowly getting better in that respect, as more people test, and their databases expand.

That said I would not agree with that analysis of mtDNA. mtDNA is not vague or unreliable, it gives very precise and accurate ancestry results:

"mtDNA is passed down exclusively from your mother. Because mtDNA does not include a combination of DNA from both parents, it does not change with every generation.In fact, mtDNA changes extremely slowly – it might remain exactly the same for dozens of generations!
mtDNA testing ignores the main DNA in a cell, and looks just at the DNA of the mitochondria instead. Among other things, that means the test only has to examine about 16,500 genetic base pairs, instead of the 3.2 billion base pairs found in our DNA."

In tracing links to ancient populations, it is of far more value than Y Haplogroups,  because mtDNA is present in higher numbers than nuclear DNA, and it is more likely to survive intact in ancient remains.

Despite the very ancient results it typically gives, in terms of Romany people in Europe, or Romany descended people, it is still of clear use and interest, as there are a few haplogroups, including my own, which are almost exclusively seen in the Romany population, but otherwise virtually absent in the wider general European population. In my own case it was crucial in backing up the paper evidence and family lore, and is much more reliable as evidence than trace South Asian autosomal ethnicity results, which as you rightly point out may not always be very reliable and are frequently seen in many tested people.

There are some examples of Romanies noted as 'Black men' or 'Negroes' in relation to prominent UK Romany families, Hearns, Lovells, etc, in my book 'The Early Romany Boswells: A Family History 1650-1810 Part 2', which was published by the Romany and Traveller Family History Society, in February this year, and is still available:

https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/earlyboswells2

There are also several further examples I have identified in relationship to the Romany Smiths, which I will be publishing in my forthcoming work on that family, available January next year. Thanks for the interest Sally.

https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/post/romani-origin-dna
https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/post/dna-a-window-to-the-deep-past
 

[LockeRoots]

Happy New Year everyone!

I wish I had all the answers, I don't, unfortunately. I can say this with some authority though, that it is when we start making use of all three types of DNA tests, autosomal, Y DNA and MtDNA, can we see things more clearly in the long run.

Until the Romani people as a whole start understanding that there is more to genetic genealogy then just the use of the autosomal DNA test, they are not getting to see all the evidence, they are only getting to see a part of the evidence.

Yes the Y DNA and MtDNA tests are more expensive, but so much more can be learned through Y DNA and MtDNA testing then can be learned through the autosomal test.

That is where we as a people are behind the learning curve, because not enough of us are using the
other types of genetic genealogy tests, Y DNA and MtDNA tests to be able to see the bigger picture.

I have already shared the examples of DNA recombination in this thread to show that the autosomal DNA test has limitations. Those limitations should be a wake up call to everyone as to why we need to start using both Y DNA and MtDNA to our knowledge base as further genetic evidence, and not solely rely on autosomal DNA as our sole source of evidence.

And today with the advancements in DNA technology, the Big Y 700 test is now available which is a pretty expensive Y DNA ( STR ) and SNP ( Y Haplogroup ) combination test.
The small handful of Romani men having upgraded to the Big Y 700 test is already showing us new evidence that was previously unknown for those of us in Y Haplogroup H*.

This is where we as a people can make big things happen, by making donations to the various DNA projects that involves the Romani people, to help get some of those DNA upgrades being paid for through donations.

In the Locke DNA project, just in the month of December 2022, the project was able to upgrade an existing Y DNA participant to the Big Y 700 test and pay for a free 37 marker Y DNA test to another Locke participant, which was made possible thanks to the generous donations being made to the Locke project. Being able to offer free upgrades or even free tests should be in everyone's best interests whom are wanting more answers.

This is how we all can make things happen, by making donations to any DNA project that is related to the Romani people, to help get more Romanies involved in Y DNA testing.
The British Romany DNA study is a prime example, ask a Romani to pay for a more expensive DNA test out of their own pocket and they may refuse, but offer them a free test and they are more likely to be open to the idea.

While I am the Admin of both the Locke DNA project and Y Haplogroup H project, there are other DNA projects that have Romani participants in them whom could benefit from donations so free upgrades can be done and free tests can be offered.

[susiee]

Hi

I have just found your posts  and  have not caught with them all,  but was interested to  see your connected to the DNA ---LOCKE  as well . A brick wall  !!!!!

My LOCKES came  to  South Australia  abt 1854  after marrying in DUNKERRIN,   KINGS COUNTY. 
JOHN LOCKE born abt 1820 DUBLIN
MARRIED --      ELIZABETH COOPER
The scattered info i have is the family back ground is HORSES -- he cared  George MINCHIN  ESQUIRE --HUNTING HOUNDS IN BUSHERSTOWN  where the first 2 kids were bron prior to coming to Australia

I have spent decades trying  to find his  and  her  family  in Ireland,   i do have his   Ire -Marriage cert    but  have never been able to  dig them up .



I  have just found  am a LEE  descendant  ( LONDON / KENT-  Tower Hamlets)
 Henry Lee born abt 1804  ( say his convict records lolol)  came here   to Aust as a convict 1821 and John 1819 -both  brothers  convicts  .

I have of course been able to follow HENRY's life .

John Lee his brother   born about  1803  was a   --Chair Bottomer ----  REf/  his Newgate records.       Thankfully,         because his Australian   convict records changed it to some other  occ  term   that    did'nt  give  us  as much context as that description did.

John  really did it tough  in Australia and  was whipped a lot     with 50  at each  event -- and sent to  very serious  isolated  convict   colonies  for re offenders  ie _Newcastle NSW  where he shovelled coal 

Poor John i have tried  to find his fate and never have sadly
I lost him about 1831 ish in Sydney in a census .
Once he got his ticket  of freedom    i think he ran off to the hills  and changed his name so i have never found  his fate  .

Now i  have  discovered my    LEE's   were Romany   (  through many sources )  ..  i  now  wonder  if my LOCKES may have been Gypsies  or even travellers    in Ireland .
Any ideas ..



But i actually came here  today  to look for info  re my GGG Father  WATERMEN ===THOMAS HARRIS             
 ( Gravesend,     HARRIS'S ) who was bound to T, HENRY 1762- 21/7/1796
Master   Henry  T, ROGERS .

So  i better do it .

[LockeRoots]

Hi Susilee

I know of no Ireland connection for the Locke family, not to my personal knowledge anyway.
I do know at least one Romani Locke ended up in Australia if I recall correctly, but I believe he was able to return to the UK at some point in time, none to my personal knowledge remains in Australia.

I do know for a fact that there is a branch of Romanies of the Lee surname in Australia, in fact a
Mr. Lee of Australia was one of the early Y DNA participants whom was placed in Y Haplogroup H-M82.
So that much I can confirm, there is a Romani family of the Lee surname in Australia.

This is one of the many reasons we end up resorting to Y DNA testing on the men, to see which lineage of their surname they are related to, which can be exceedingly helpful with the genealogical paper trail research.

Locke, Lee and Cooper are all three known Romani family surnames, but they are also very common surnames and obviously not all Locke, Lee and Cooper lineages are of Romani ancestry.

[susiee]

Thanks So much

You may be familiar with   the  Australian   MANDY SAYER   book
 "Secrets of the Australian Gypsies "
She covers convict days and  now and interviews many current families .
She mentions LEE brothers in her book .

Is your opinion  that LOCKE is  not a regular Irish name ?  and  i am wondering if they  have come over to Ireland from England and i should perhaps  extend my research to England although he was born in Dublin .

I have worked on them for a very long time in Ireland and gotten nothing .

[LockeRoots]

This is the Travelling People forum, so I presumed you were talking about my Locke family whom are Romani.

The Lock / Locke surname in general, is used in England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Sweden, Germany with immigrants spread across the globe. There are over 30 unrelated male lineages identified through Y DNA of the Lock and Locke surname and counting. Just in the UK alone, there could very easily be another additional 30 to 100 paternal lineages of the Lock / Locke surname that haven't been identified through Y DNA.

Yes there are Locke's of Irish ancestry too. I don't know a lot about the Irish Lock / Locke families, though I do know of them.

[susiee]

You know at this point they could be anything really i guess  i just have not been able to find anything on them in  Ireland  at all  except their marriage in 1845  prior to leaving for  Australia. Except obits in Aust that were very dry of details in Ireland and mainly re Aust.