Chelsea Pensioner

[Hemmum]

Can anyone please shed any light on two records I have found for James Caves.?
As both James Caves served in the same regiment and for similar periods I assume they are for the same man although it seems strange, to me, that someone who is discharged for almost daily epileptic fits would be fit again.

As in the second record James is described as an ‘out pensioner’ I wonder if he married back in Bedfordshire after his first discharge.

Before the second discharge when James served a further 51 days was this service at the Chelsea Hospital?

Also is it possible to know how long a pension was paid (when James Caves died) and if a pensioner had any dependants?

I know very little about these records so any help or guidance would be appreciated
The two records roughly are;

James Caves Birth year 1765 Birth in parish Wootton, Bedford, Bedfordshire. England
Regiment Scots Guards. Discharged 19 May 1798. (attested 1784 aged 19/20)
James Caves by trade a Labourer aged 33 served 13 years 3 months is subject to Epileptic fits  which come on every other night and renders him unfit for service. Discharged at London 19 May 1798 by Cavendish Liston Lt Gl Comd of 3rd Regt of Foot.
Next page Reads . The Duke of Argyll Third Regiment of Foot Guard.  Receipt for pay clothing etc signed by James Caves who made his mark (X)
WO121 Box 0032 . Chelsea Pensioners discharge documents 1760-1887

There is also a record of James Caves Discharged 14 Feb 1803  of Royal Garrison Battalions, no age or place of birth given.
‘James Caves having been ordered by the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital  to the said Of Invalids commanded by Major General Murray 225 Dec 1802 after being discharged for 13 and ¾ years service in the Third Regiment of Foot ?? Then commanded by the Duke of Argyll. Hath ser’d honestly in the above Regt for the space of fifty one days: But now being worn out and rendered unfit for any further Duty on Account of : the Inspection and Report of the Surgeon General as being found incapable of doing Garrison Duty he is Hereby Exempted from attendance upon any further obligation when out Pensioners may be called in.
He is hereby discharged the said Regt and recommended as a proper Object to partake of His Majesty’s Royal Bounty of Chelsea Hospital:…… to the 14 July 1803 inclusive. Receipt  Signed by the mark of James Cave’
Royal Garrison Battalions Document type Discharge Series WO121 Box 0156

[km1971]

Chelsea Hospital was responsible for paying army pensioners. Out pensioners just means they did not live at the hospital - they were the in-pensioners, who you still see with the red coats.

The extra 51 days will be from when he attended the discharge hearing to finally be discharged. The recommendation of the discharge hearing had to be approved by Horse Guards/War Office and he may have had to return to a Depot.

The Scots Guards/Scottish Fusiliers Guards and the Third Regiment of Foot Guards are the same regiment, and not to be confused with the Third Regiment of Foot, which was a line regiment. 1803 was the end of the first phase in the war with France following the treaty and peace of Amiens. Fighting started up again in 1804 when Napoleon seized power. The government had already started to call up all veterans/pensioners to see if they were fit enough to serve in home regiments. They formed veteran and garrison battalions. That is likely to have happened in James' case.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/15530/page/1168

I will see if I can find his records on Findmypast. When the records were on microfilm in Kew they were indexed and there are three entries that need sorting out. You may have to go to Kew and research the muster books.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_st=adv&_aq=james+caves&_cr1=wo&_dss=range&_ro=any&search=r&_p=1800&_p=1700&Refine+dates=Refine

Sometimes you find a date on the record which is when the pension stopped (with his death). The pension would have stopped with him.

Ken

[Hemmum]

Hi Ken
Thank you for all the information which has given me a much clearer idea of his service. I found the two entries I mentioned on FindMyPast as I have been researching the Cave/Caves family and James (although not in my direct line) may help link two Bedfordshire parishes and indicate the movement of the family. Any other idea would be welcome.

[Hemmum]

Ken you mentioned a third record.
I found this at National Archives but I cannot find it on FindMyPast search.
As there is not a Parish or place in Bedfordshire named 'Weston' I wonder if it should read Wotton (James Caves Parish). Does this look like the same man to you?

WO 121/192/163 1786-1814
JAMES KEAVES alias JAMES CAVES
Born WESTON, Bedfordshire
Served in 3rd Royal Veteran Battalion; 3rd Foot Guards; 18th Foot Regiment
Discharged aged 53 after 22 years 3 months of service
Covering dates give year of enlistment to year of discharge.
See film image 483

[km1971]

I agree that it should be Wotten and that it refers to the same man. When FIndmypast scanned WO97 and WO121 they apparently were given access to the original files and did not use the microfilms. So new errors/ommissions were introduced.

WO121 records are usually oneliners so with little extra information. But the new regiments give yoiu something to research in the musters. The information on Discovery was compiled by the Friends of the PRO (as was) and is usually more reliable than FindMyPast or Ancestry.

Ken