Apprenticeship Doc Help please

[arabrab]

Any help to decipher the info about James Neale son of James Neale and his apprenticeship to John Apthorpe would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[arthurk]

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to say very much that you (probably) won't already have:

James Neale son of James Neale came before
the Chamber of the Citizens of London¹ on the 25th day of August in the
eighth year of William III and acknowledged himself to be an apprentice
of John Apthorpe Citizen and Founder² of London by an indenture
dated [or given on] 28th February ¹⁶⁹⁶ in the eighth year of William III
for eight years

Notes:
1. That's a fairly literal translation - I don't know if there would be a more usual English term for this body.
2. Latin "Fundat[oris]" - I take this to mean he was a member of the Worshipful Company of Founders, though the word can have other meanings too.

It makes me wonder if there might be any other documents from Feb 1696, or around 1704 when he might have finished his apprenticeship. (Because of the calendar change, these dates would conventionally be given now as 1696/97 and 1704/05.)

Arthur

[arabrab]

Thank you for that.  I am adding the signature below . Does it say guard after the name or is that part of the name?

The whole thing is dated 1703  May to October  Freedom of the city admission papers on the website

[arthurk]

The line through the "d" is an indication that this is an abbreviation, though sometimes a bit of guesswork might be needed to work out what an abbreviation is short for.

In this case I would think it's probably "guardian", though whether this is James's guardian or the title of some city official I couldn't say. If the same signature appears on other documents around that time, then probably the latter.

Arthur

[Bookbox]

Chamber of the Citizens of London¹
Notes:
1. That's a fairly literal translation - I don't know if there would be a more usual English term for this body.

Chamber of the City of London. Normally just called the Chamber of London.

2. Latin "Fundat[oris]" - I take this to mean he was a member of the Worshipful Company of Founders

Agreed.

guard' normally translates in this context as Warden.

[Bookbox]

The whole thing is dated 1703  May to October  Freedom of the city admission papers on the website

It's definitely 1696/97. Much of Ancestry's dating in this database is wrong.

[arabrab]

Thanks a lot for the information. I had assumed that the apprenticeship was started as dated in 1696 and finished about 1703 which was why it was bundled and dated as such.Most of the documents in this section are actual indentures but this appears to be a rectangular piece of paper.
Anyway my real problem is that I am relying on transcriptions of the Company of Founders.ROLLCO
There are two apprenticeship records of a James Neall son of James Neall who was apprenticed to John Apthorpe of the company of Founders.
One dated Sep 16 1695 James the father being of Tiffell (sic)Northampton
the second dated 28 Feb 1696 the father being of Fifton (sic)Northamptonshire This date of course matches the above record. All other details are the same for the two apprentices.
I am happy to agree that Tiffell is Tiffield Northants and can find a suitable birth for James son of James but I cannot find Fifton or any place with a similar name  . Do you think it is really likely that two James son of James would have been apprenticed to the same master 5 months apart?
I can find no other birth of a James Neall/e at the right time in Northants anywhere.And can not find any record of another  James Neall/e brass or iron founder.
I am hoping someone will agree that these two James Nealls are one and the same man If so I have found my 6xgreat grandfathers birth after a 30 year search, as Tiffield James fits all the facts.

Fingers crossed. Barbara

[Bookbox]

I would say it's extremely likely they're the same person.

But there are discrepancies between the sources. The record in the City Freedom papers states the term of service was 8 years, while the two entries on Rollco state 7 years. It may be that a second set of indentures was issued for the longer term, hence the City record.

I suspect that at least one of the dates in Rollco may be misconstrued -- easily done at this period because William III's regnal years are not straightforward. Also, only one of Rollco's records states the father was deceased.

I'll try to check the film of the Founders' bindings for you at Guildhall later this week. That might also help with the place-names.

[arthurk]

Thank you, Bookbox, for correcting my terminology, dates etc. My expertise (?) here is more in the translation than the City institutions etc.

And a quick further comment to Barbara:

...And can not find any record of another  James Neall/e brass or iron founder.

I know you've been looking in the Company of Founders' records, but if you're looking in places other than Company records, bear in mind that being in the Founders' Company doesn't necessarily mean that that was his trade. Just about the only experience I have of a London apprenticeship is a diamond cutter who was a member of the Farriers' Company, and my wife has a cheesemonger who was in the Hat Band Makers' Company.

Arthur