A Keen Puzzle

[MattD30]

I wonder if anyone can help me with a puzzle.

My ancestor Thomas Keene was born in Wanborough in 1754, the eldest of 10 children born to John and Margaret Keen. John and Margaret's other children were:

John - born 1756
Henry - born 1759
Charles - born 1766 died bef 1777
Martha - born 1769
Alithea/Alathia - born 1771
Mary - born 1774
Sarah - born 1776 died bef 1780
Charles - born 1777
Sarah - born 1780

John Keen snr married Margaret Iles in 1753 in Preshute, Wiltshire. He died in Wanborough in 1803 and Margaret died in 1799 also in Wanborough where both are buried.

John was born in Chiseldon in March 1730 and was christened at Holy Cross church on 26 March 1730. His parents were Sylvester Keen and Alithea. There were two other children: Thomas (1733) and Richard (1739) both born in Swindon. All three christenings are shown on FindMyPast

The odd thing is I cannot find the marriage for Sylvester and Alithea. I have found a Marriage Licence Bond issued at Chiseldon dated 27 October 1729 on Findmypast [using the surname 'Keen' and first name 'Alithea' for the spouse as search terms] but this is for John Keen and Alithea Skinner. Their marriage appears on Familysearch as taking place at Great Farringdon, Berkshire the very next day but this still says John.

Sylvester is a very distinct name and clear to pick out. The baptism entries for John (1729), Thomas (1733) and Richard (1739) all give the parents names as Sylvester and Alethea (or Alithea). Also John Keene and Margaret Iles named one of their children Alithea so there is clearly a link.

The puzzle is why is does the only marriage I can find between a 'Keene' and a woman named Alethea in the same time period say 'John' instead of 'Sylvester'? I have found no other marriage and as mentioned their first son Thomas was born in Chiseldon in 1733. No other marriage has yet been found either for 'Sylvester Keen' or for a woman named 'Alethea'. Could the name have been mistranscribed? Or could he have changed his name in order to marry?

Sylvester Keen himself was christened in Hankerton on 19 March 1702. He married someone named Alathia (surname unknown) before 1730 which is when their son John was born. I know from a case in Chancery that Sylvester had three brothers (Thomas, Richard and Wayte) and a sister (Margaret).

As I say the puzzle here is why the transcript on Findmypast for the Marriage Licence between Alithea Skinner and Sylvester Keen reads 'John Keen and Alithea Skinner'. This is the only marriage I have found for anyone named Alithea marrying a Keene in the right area and in the right time frame. Sylvester's father was named John as was his eldest son (as mentioned above).

Sylvester was also involved in a dispute in Chancery along with his siblings Thomas, Richard, Wayte (their mother was Mary Wayte) and Margaret which seems to centre on the validity of their father's will and various inheritances as well as the guardianship of the children. Thomas, Richard, Wayte and Margaret are all named in their father's will but there is no mention of Sylvester. Could he have fallen out with his father and therefore changed his name or called himself something different at marriage? Alternatively could there just be a error in the transcription of the Marriage Licence Bond?

Alternatively does anyone know of another marriage between a Sylvester Keen and Alithea in the 1720s-1730s?

Suggestions welcomed

Thanks

Matt

[Rosinish]

Also Skinner on familysearch.org

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2MS-D42

Is it not possible that the "Iles" was an error rather than Skinner?

Do any of the children further down the line carry a middle name of Iles or Skinner?

Annie

[Rosinish]

Something amiss by dates here?

Married 1737 but 1st of 10 children born 1756 (19 yr gap).

Is it possible Margaret was married previously i.e. 2 different surnames, 1 being her m/s & other her marital surname? or..............you have missed a generation?

Annie

ADDED...."John Keen snr married Margaret Iles in 1737, and died in 1803.

John was born in Chiseldon in March 1730"

So you have John born 1730 & marrying in 1737?....Something not adding up with your dates on this lot?

[jonw65]

So you have John born 1730 & marrying in 1737?....Something not adding up with your dates on this lot?

John Keen married Margaret Isles, 26 Feb 1753, Preshute, Wiltshire. Both of Wanborough.
Son Thomas bap. 28 November 1754, Wanborough. Died of smallpox, and buried 15 January 1817, Chiseldon.

It does rather look as though Sylvester called himself John for some unknown reason when he married Alethea in Great Faringdon in 1729. Family Search entry from microfilm 88260, Parish Registers of Great Faringdon - baptisms, marriages and burials, 1653-1812.

Licence, dated one day before the marriage, apparently says that "John" was of Swindon, a barber?, Alethea was a spinster of Chiseldon.

Wasn't Sylvester Keen buried at Swindon Holy Rood? He is at least on a MI there (1745)
Along with parents Mary (1681-1753) and John.
Sylvester was "that friend of the Devil", the Swindon bailiff?

If Alethia did not remarry she might be buried in Chiseldon. I mean, maybe she is the unnamed Keene buried there 1797 age 91. Info from transcripts. Perhaps its Widow Keene or similar, although it could be a male of course.

Or was Sylvester's father John buried in Iron Acton, and his wife and son in Swindon? Is this the will you refer to?
PCC Will of John Keen or Keene, Yeoman of Iron Acton, Gloucestershire, 15 July 1719 (PROB 11/569/318)

Chancery Case, Keen v Keen ?, you would really need to try to get to see it at the National Archives
C 11/665/34
Short title: Kenn v Keen
Bill and answer.
Plaintiffs: Richard Keen and Wayte Keen (two sons of John Keen, yeoman deceased, late of Latteridge, Iron Acton, Gloucestershire), infants (by Thomas Waite, gent of Swindon, Wiltshire).
Defendants: Silvester Keen, Noblet Ruddock, Thomas Shute, John Ridley, Dame Mary Whetstone, Thomas Yate, James Donning and John Samson.
Date of bill (or first document): 1720

[MattD30]

Also Skinner on familysearch.org

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2MS-D42

Is it not possible that the "Iles" was an error rather than Skinner?

Do any of the children further down the line carry a middle name of Iles or Skinner?

Annie

Oops I made a slight error there with names dates. 1737 is when Margaret Iles was born not married. She married John Keene [not Thomas Keene] on 26 February 1753 in Preshute, Wiltshire. Their son was named Thomas and was born in Wanborough in 1754.

Sorry about the mix up in details. The quest to find the marriage for Sylvester Keen and Alathea is still there though.

Matt

[MattD30]

Something amiss by dates here?

Married 1737 but 1st of 10 children born 1756 (19 yr gap).

Is it possible Margaret was married previously i.e. 2 different surnames, 1 being her m/s & other her marital surname? or..............you have missed a generation?

Annie

ADDED...."John Keen snr married Margaret Iles in 1737, and died in 1803.

John was born in Chiseldon in March 1730"

So you have John born 1730 & marrying in 1737?....Something not adding up with your dates on this lot?

As just mentioned I put the wrong dates when I wrote the post. I have now revised it (see revised post at top).

John Keene was born in 1730 [and died in November 1803]
Margaret Iles was born in May 1737 [and died August 1799]

John and Margaret were married in 1753 not 1737 sorry.

John was baptised on 26 March 1730 in Chiseldon. His parents were Sylvester and Alathea. His baptism is on FindMyPast as are those of his brothers Thomas and Richard [baptised in Swindon]. They are listed under the Wiltshire Baptisms 1530-1886 source.

Sylvester Keen himself was born in 1701 as stated and baptised on 19 March 1701 at Hankerton. His parents were John and Mary. John Keen was married to Mary Wayte [by Licence] on 10 May 1701 in Minety. He was 'of Hankerton' at the time and she was 'of Eastcott, Swindon'. Again both Sylvester's baptism and John's marriage licence record are on FindMyPast.

John and Mary had three other named sons, Thomas, Richard, and Wayt, plus a daughter named Margaret.

Sorry about the mix up and confusing info.

Matt

[MattD30]

Hi there

Yes John Keen married Margaret Iles in 1753 not 1737 which was a typo. 1737 is when Margaret was born. She died in 1799 and John died in 1803 both in Wanborough. As you say, Thomas died in 1817 of smallpox.

As you mentioned the Marriage Licence Bond for 'John' and Alethea describes him being 'a barber' and 'of Swindon' and Alethea is described as 'of Chiseldon'. Interestingly according to this the marriage took place [or perhaps was going to take place] in Chiseldon.

Where did that information about Sylvester's death/MI and that of his parents come from? I have a note in my file for the burial of Silvester Keen [son of John and Mary] in Swindon (Holy Rood) dated 30 May 1745 but I don't remember where I found that out. I assume the dates 1681-1753 are for Mary's birth and death. Is this on the MI or do you know when/where she was born? That would be very very helpful. Where does the quote 'Sylvester was "that friend of the Devil", the Swindon bailiff?' that you gave come from? Is that on the MI? I would be very interested to know more.

I cannot find any other marriage for Alethea/Alithea/Alithia Keen in Chiseldon or anywhere [in fact I have not encountered any other references to the name!]. So I suspect that she did die and like you say she could be the unnamed Keene buried there 1797 age 91.

The will in the PCC for John Keen or Keene, Yeoman of Iron Acton, Gloucestershire, 15 July 1719 (PROB 11/569/318) would be that of Sylvester's father. This is clear from the fact that it not only mentions his wife Mary, but more importantly includes the names of three sons one of whom is named Wayt Keen [Mary's maiden name was Wayt] and a daughter named Margaret. There is what looks like an inventory for John Keen of Latteridge in the parish of Iron Acton, yeoman [PROB 3/18/146] dated 5 July 1719 although I have not looked at this yet.

With regards to the Chancery case Keen v Keen [PROB 11/665/34] I examined this at the National Archives when there on Saturday and it does make interesting reading. I didn't have time to get a copy [plus it was quite expensive] but did get time to take several digital photos of it. I have it photographed in two or three sections and also copies of particular sections. In the Bill of Complaint John Keen's will is referred to and quoted in length. Silvester Keen is named in the Bill and described as 'another son of John Keen deceased and the elder brother of Thomas, Richard and Wayt Keen'.

John Keen is described as 'the father of the Complainants and of this Defendant Sylvester'. Sylvester is described in the opening lines as 'an infant under the age of One and Twenty years' which makes sense as he would be about 19 or 20 at this time.

There are references to mortgages, and sales of land which Silvester is apparently opposing (presumably as he is the eldest son and believes he should inherit them).

The document is quite long and I haven't gone through it all yet but it is clearly connected to the Will of John Keen and the guardianship of Sylvester Keen [and presumably that of his siblings]. Unfortunately some of my photos came out a bit blurry so I will need to look at it again.

Interestingly this case seems to have continued the next year as there is also the following document at the National Archives:

C 11/923/14
Short title: Keen v Keen
Document type: Depositions
Plaintiffs: Richard Keen and Wayte Keen infants.
Defendants: Silvester Keen, Noblet Ruddock, Thomas Shute, John Ridley, Dame Mary Whetstone, Thomas Yate, James Donning and John Samson.
Depositions taken at All Saints, Bristol
Date of bill (or first document): 1721

I only found out about this after I had been to the National Archives so haven't seen it yet but maybe this holds more clues.

Like you say it looks like Sylvester called himself 'John' at the time of his marriage but I would love to know why. Also why did his father not mention him in his will, even in passing? Does the reference about him being "that friend of the Devil" have something to do with it? Did he fall out with the family in some way?

A clue might be found in the will of Thomas Wayte [also spelt Waite], Mary's father. Also if they left any then clues might be found in the wills of the other people involved in the case in Chancery. Yesterday I did a search online and found a lot of records relating to the Keens in Latteridge, parish of Iron Acton, held at the Wiltshire and Swindon History Centre, the Gloucestershire Archives, and the National Archives. These include deeds and another of other records which I haven't seen yet but which probably also hold clues. If I could find a will for one of Alethea's relatives this would be very useful but so far I haven't found anything.

Many thanks for your ideas which are very helpful and definitely make me think I have the same marriage even though there is the mystery of the name change.

Anyhow many thanks again and I look forward to hearing from you about the MI relating to Sylvester Keen.

Matt

[MattD30]

So you have John born 1730 & marrying in 1737?....Something not adding up with your dates on this lot?

John Keen married Margaret Isles, 26 Feb 1753, Preshute, Wiltshire. Both of Wanborough.
Son Thomas bap. 28 November 1754, Wanborough. Died of smallpox, and buried 15 January 1817, Chiseldon.

It does rather look as though Sylvester called himself John for some unknown reason when he married Alethea in Great Faringdon in 1729. Family Search entry from microfilm 88260, Parish Registers of Great Faringdon - baptisms, marriages and burials, 1653-1812.

Licence, dated one day before the marriage, apparently says that "John" was of Swindon, a barber?, Alethea was a spinster of Chiseldon.

Wasn't Sylvester Keen buried at Swindon Holy Rood? He is at least on a MI there (1745)
Along with parents Mary (1681-1753) and John.
Sylvester was "that friend of the Devil", the Swindon bailiff?

If Alethia did not remarry she might be buried in Chiseldon. I mean, maybe she is the unnamed Keene buried there 1797 age 91. Info from transcripts. Perhaps its Widow Keene or similar, although it could be a male of course.

Or was Sylvester's father John buried in Iron Acton, and his wife and son in Swindon? Is this the will you refer to?
PCC Will of John Keen or Keene, Yeoman of Iron Acton, Gloucestershire, 15 July 1719 (PROB 11/569/318)

Chancery Case, Keen v Keen ?, you would really need to try to get to see it at the National Archives
C 11/665/34
Short title: Kenn v Keen
Bill and answer.
Plaintiffs: Richard Keen and Wayte Keen (two sons of John Keen, yeoman deceased, late of Latteridge, Iron Acton, Gloucestershire), infants (by Thomas Waite, gent of Swindon, Wiltshire).
Defendants: Silvester Keen, Noblet Ruddock, Thomas Shute, John Ridley, Dame Mary Whetstone, Thomas Yate, James Donning and John Samson.
Date of bill (or first document): 1720

Hi

Please see post above with revised information in response to your post.

Matt

[Rosinish]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for clarifying dates & sorry to pick up on it but glad I did as it did leave a bit of confusion 

Annie