John McKenzie - how far back?

[kjmck]

Hi there,

I am looking to see if i can get any further back in my paternal line.

My 4x Great Grandfather was John McKenzie/MacKenzie, he died 22 February 1857 at Arinagour Farm, on the Isle of Coll in Argyll aged 90. His occupation is given as a 'Greenwich Pensioner & Crofter'. His wife's name was Elizabeth (Betty/Betsy) Sutherland, and they married 18 May 1805 in Canongate, Edinburgh.

John and Betsy had 4 children in Inverness-shire before they moved west to Argyll. On all of these 4 baptismal records, John is listed as either a private or a soldier in the 6th R.V.B and fought at the battle of Assaye in the Maratha War. The youngest of the 4 was my 3x great grandfather John, who lists himself either being born at Fort William or Artnasair Par in 1812. I don't know what Artnasair Par means though.

So, on his death record it gives his parents as John MacKenzie (Crofter) and Peggy (Maiden Name unknown). After searching the records, I found a baptism for a John McKenzie in Inverness on 22 September 1765 to John McKenzie and Margaret McLean. It reads - 'John McKenzie bewest the water and his spouse Margaret McLean...' Does anyone know what bewest the water means?

On the discharge papers of my 4x Great Grandfather, he is listed as a Sergeant, that he was born in the Parish of Moy near Inverness, that he was near 40 (and this was in 1805) so he would have been born roughly 1765.

Questions:

1) Does anyone know where Artnasair Par is?
2) Is there any way I can access more military records for John (born 1765)?
3) If correct that his parents were John McKenzie & Margaret McLean, is there any way to trace these further back?
4) Have I hit a dead end?

Many thanks,

Keelan

[Rena]

He must have been in the navy to have been a Greenwich pensioner. Have you seen the surviving list of Greenwich Pensioners on the National Archive website? 

Here is the link and you'll see from the page that you can filter the results.  It gives ages, etc where known:-

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=John%20Mckenzie

[kjmck]

Well on his wife Elizabeth's death certificate in 1860, he is listed as a Chelsea Pensioner, would this make a difference to what he was doing in the military/navy?

[Rena]

Greenwich Pensioners wore green hospital uniforms and the in-patients were treated in the specially built naval hospital provided by Queen Ann in Greenwich.

Chelsea Pensioners are the more famous ones who wear red hospital uniforms.  The in-patients were treated in the army hospital located in Chelsea.   I see findmypast has some records.

Here's a link explaining what the pensioners are/were and what records there are for the Chelsea Pensioners.

http://www.chelsea-pensioners.co.uk/tracing-ancestors

[kjmck]

I think there may have been a bit of fibbing going on from the family on these records.

Although he is listed as a sergeant on his discharge papers in 1805, i can't find a record of him belonging to either the Greenwich or Chelsea pensioners.

[Rosinish]

Does anyone know what bewest the water means?

1) Does anyone know where Artnasair Par is?

Hi Keelan,

Not sure if this will help but......

"Does anyone know what bewest the water means?"

Simply means "to the west of"

"1) Does anyone know where Artnasair Par is?"

My take on this is that it could be Ardersier Parish?......nearest sounding name I can come up with?

Can you tell us who registered John's death in 1857 & who registered his wife's death in 1860?

The info. on death certs. are only as good as the knowledge of the informant.


Annie

[Rena]

I think there may have been a bit of fibbing going on from the family on these records.

Although he is listed as a sergeant on his discharge papers in 1805, i can't find a record of him belonging to either the Greenwich or Chelsea pensioners.

The rank of sergeant is an army term. The navy uses the terms "seamen" and "able seamen". However, the navy marines were/are soldiers and presumably they use the term "sergeant" too.  It's quite possible that your ancestor could have been conscripted or volunteered.   Unfortunately I can't put my hand on notes I've made during my research on the dates of wars and prospective wars.   

As regards the navy, each parish was given a quota of young men they had to raise for the navy - if in a time of need the numbers weren't achieved, history shows that "press gangs" earned money by kidnapping young men off the streets - that practice stopped c1815.   I have one Greenwich Pensioner ancestor who served in the navy from 1794 when I think we were quarreling with Denmark.

You have quite a choice as to which Highland militia army your man fought for.  The link below has a list which show what records still survive for the counties of Argyll, Inverness, Sutherland and Ross & Cromarty, etc., etc. Amongst them are the lists of eligible men aged between 16 and 60 for the Highland Fencibles raised in 1797 and 1798. For instance, one branch of the Mackenzies raised the Seaforth Highlanders but unfortunately "John M'kenzie" is quite a common name.  To get recruits to sign up, they were promised a lump sum of money for their family plus a wage for themselves, which wasn't to be sneezed when times were hard.   


http://www.myainfolk.com/Resources_files/Scottish_Population_Listings_Pre1841.pdf

[DonM]

I can't believe that after all the years this thread is still bouncing around the web.

For a few credits at Scot's People you could have found out amazing things and moved on.

Things like they had 7 children not 4; that in 1812 he was listed as private it says so as clear as day in his son's baptism.  Likely at the Garrison at Augustus.  And, that Donald b 1820 would make him the youngest and a whole lot more.

04/12/1812 MACKENZIE JOHN JOHN MACKENZIE/BETTY SUTHERLAND FR159 (FR159) M BOLESKINE AND ABERTARFF OR FORT AUGUSTUS /INVERNESS 092/00 0010 0182

Don

[Rena]

I can't believe that after all the years this thread is still bouncing around the web.

For a few credits at Scot's People you could have found out amazing things and moved on.

Things like they had 7 children not 4; that in 1812 he was listed as private it says so as clear as day in his son's baptism.  Likely at the Garrison at Augustus.  And, that Donald b 1820 would make him the youngest and a whole lot more.

04/12/1812 MACKENZIE JOHN JOHN MACKENZIE/BETTY SUTHERLAND FR159 (FR159) M BOLESKINE AND ABERTARFF OR FORT AUGUSTUS /INVERNESS 092/00 0010 0182

Don

Hi Don,
What a surprise to see you - I'm still "bouncing around" with my Donald M'kenzie, blacksmith of Clyde Ironworks born Urray, who I suspect was also in the army - only because he seems to have been quite old when his children were born.  Mysteriously one of my father's brothers had the three forenames of Alan Cameron M'kenzie which I know was from an original Alan M'kenzie, also of Clyde Ironworks from the 1841 census. Could that be a clue to a leader of a highland regiment I wonder.