1841/1851 census

[sandyjose]

 Please can someone explain to me how on the 1851 census there are people I've never heard of. The return was made by a Charles Gunning. He said that his parents were William and Mary Snodden,he then has a list of people that I don't know where they came from.
  Mary and William's children were Samuel,James,Thomas Henry,David and Sarah so who are the other people? I'm also puzzled because non of them were born in !841 and only Samuel was born by 1851.
  An explanation would be good,Thank you

[Sinann]

Is this what you are referring  to
http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246683/007246683_01492.pdf

This isn't a census return; its a report on a search of the census in order to see if Charles is old enough to get a pension. The family were not found.

The other names are possibly people he said would be on the return but as the return wasn't found it's not possible to say what relationship they had to Charles.
The names that match his siblings may be siblings and parents of his father if the couple were living with his family.

[aghadowey]

In order to interpret the census search form it helps to understand the questions the applicant would have been asked and why that information was asked for.

Since registration of births started in 1864 there would have been no birth certificates for these applicants and the census was seen as the best way to establish their entitlement to the old age pension. Therefore, the application was done at a local level with clerks in Dublin following up with the census searches.

In order the find the applicant in the relevant census they were asked questions such as names of parents, names of all siblings (in chronological order), townland/address where they were living at the time of the census. Often the family were not found in the location given (remember they were being asked where they had supposedly lived 70+ years earlier) and a request to search other places might be sent back to Dublin after contacting the applicant to provide more information. In many cases the applicant wasn't actually old enough to get the pension (age 70 at the start) and weren't found but there would be a note added to the search form stating parents and whatever children were listed (the reason applicant was asked about siblings in birth order).

So it seems almost certain that the names listed on the left side of the search form (from Sinann's link) are the same family even if you aren't aware of all of them (possibly died young or left home at an early age).

[aghadowey]

Mary and William's children were Samuel,James,Thomas Henry,David and Sarah so who are the other people? I'm also puzzled because non of them were born in !841 and only Samuel was born by 1851.

It sounds as though you haven't checked church records for baptisms yet- Charles was born between 1853-1858 going by the list of children in the search form- which would certainly explain why he wasn't in the 1851 census.

William GUNNING of Conlig; husband of Mary Snodden; father of David b. 6 Feb & bpt. 5 Jun 1858 & Henry b. 27 Jun & bpt. 10 Sep 1860 & Sarah b. 29 Jun & bpt. 7 Aug 1853 at 1st Newtownards Presbyterian Church
The above (and lots more) here-
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/G/GriGy.htm

[sandyjose]

 Many thanks for all your help.I have looked at Ros Davis' site many times and I printed of pages so that I can study them and I can't find a Charles Gunning.. As for not knowing about baptisms,about 2 years ago I contacted !st Presbyterian Church and "after 1year"they sent me a printout of all the baptisms and marriages involving my family.The children of William and Mary are there,Samuel twice about a month apart,But Thomas(my great grandad) and James aren't there.Could they have been baptized at a church near Conlig or Bangor? Some churches are very good and send me information but others don't reply.
  I can find no record of names on the pension application except the ones I've always had.Thomas married Anna McCafferty(McCaffirty) in the Church in Greenwell Street in 1877 after she had had 3 children.One,my grandad,William James was baptized in the same church.I don't know where the other 2,Easter and Mary,were baptized,can't think it was easy getting children baptized when their parents weren't married.Easter is a big mystery because she didn't go to Glasgow with the family.I can't find any trace of her anywhere.
  James,married in Glasgow and went to live in New Zealand were Thomas went in 1891,leaving his family behind.He married again in 1901,committing bigamy!
 You say that the application was refused,could someone have been trying to pull a fast one?

[aghadowey]

You say that the application was refused,could someone have been trying to pull a fast one?
The form says 'not found' and doesn't say refused (although from the baptismal records it looks like he was born after 1851). Possibly he appled a few years later and did eventually get the pension. Most people didn't know exactly when (and perhaps where) they were born so it may merely have been that Charles thought he was old enough to get the pension.

As for not knowing about baptisms,about 2 years ago I contacted !st Presbyterian Church and "after 1year"they sent me a printout of all the baptisms and marriages involving my family.The children of William and Mary are there,Samuel twice about a month apart,But Thomas(my great grandad) and James aren't there.Could they have been baptized at a church near Conlig or Bangor? Some churches are very good and send me information but others don't reply.
It's not uncommon for baptisms to go unrecorded or there to be gaps in the church records. Years ago the minister might keep a list of baptisms and later record quite a few at the one time. If his note was lost or one was missed when copying all in to the register then nothing shows in the register.

.I don't know where the other 2,Easter and Mary,were baptized,can't think it was easy getting children baptized when their parents weren't married.Easter is a big mystery because she didn't go to Glasgow with the family.I can't find any trace of her anywhere.
Most ministers would have baptised children brought to them even if the parents weren't married so it may be more to do with the parents not having them baptised. Easter might appear in records as Esther, Hester, Hessie or Essie.

[sandyjose]

 Thank you for all your comments.
  Going back to Easter,who could have been Esther,after Anna's mother,it makes no difference what her name was,she didn't go to Glasgow.My thoughts are,possibly she wasn't Thomas' and he refused to take responsibility for her,so she was adopted by someone who could have changed her name.The only other thing I can think of is,the child had some sort of problems so she was put in an institution.of some kind. I'll probably never know.

[aghadowey]

If Thomas married Annie (with 3 children) in 1877 and the 2 older ones later appear with the couple in Scotland then it's more likely than not that Easter was Thomas' daughter.

For reference-
Birth: Easter McCafferty born 11 Nov.1874

What about the 1911 census- if Annie was still married it should say how many children and how many of them still living.

[sandyjose]

 
 By 1901 Annie was back in Ireland living in Ards with her daughter Mary,on the census she say's that she is married and had 2 children.She couldn't read or write so I guess Mary filled it in.
  Mary married a Wm McMillan in Belfast later that year,y went to live in Glasgow.
  William James,married Janet McMillan(no relation to Wm)in Ballygilbert in 1903,they went to Glasgow too.
  On the 1911 census Annie puts that she is a widow.She made her living embroidering. In 1919 she married a John White in Ards,she died in 1930
  Apart from Easter's birth there's no mention of her again.You are probably right that she was Thomas' because names are repeated. William James for Thomas' father and grandad,Easter/Esther for Annie's mother and Mary for Thomas' mother.