Help needed with the TAPLIN family

[Greaves]

Charles TAPLIN and his wife Mary MANCEY were my 3x Great Grandparents. Information about them is very patchy. Charles I believe was born in 1801 and died in 1864 in the Basingstoke Workhouse. His wife Mary is a little more straight-forward. She was born in 1805 in Old Basing, the daughter of John and Sarah MANCEY. She married Charles TAPLIN on 25 Jan 1825 at Old Basing. And died on 27 Jun 1840 at Old Basing. They had five children: John (1826), William (1831), Charles (1833), Mary (1835) and Tom (1837.

So with this couple, I would like to find:

(a) Charles' DOB or baptism
(b) confirmation of Charles' death, i.e. have I got the right person.

The 1841 Census showed the family in ruins following the death in 1840 of Charles' wife Mary and their daughter Mary.

Charles (51) is a pauper in the Basingstoke Workhouse.
John (15) is an agricultural labourer working on Hale Farm.
William (10) is a pauper, also in the Basingstoke Workhouse.
Tom (3) is living with his mother's parents, John and Sarah, in Basing.

Perhaps, I should add that on the 1841 census [HO107 385 8 3 3] there could be transcription errors with Charles being aged 81 and William 110!

I have baptism, marriage (where applicable) and death certificates for John (1826-1873), Charles (1833-1844), Mary (1835-1840) and Tom (1837-1847). As you can see, they all died young, with the exception of my 2x Great Grandfather, John.

William (b1831) is more complicated. I always thought he died in 1846, but having just received the death certificate I now know this is wrong. The person who died in 1846 was only 7 yrs old and was the son of Richard not Charles TAPLIN.

So my problems with the children are:

(a) when did William die?
(b) if William died after 1851, where was he in 1851.

As always, all and any help gratefully welcomed.

[ciderdrinker]

Hello
You say you have the family on the 1841 census which is fine but do you have Charles on the 1851 census with a birthplace?
There are 3 likely baptisms
Charles at Overton s of Moses and Sarah 1.9.1799
             at Old Basing 20.12.1801 s of John and Sarah
and at Winslade 21.12 1801 also to a John and Sarah.
It's a matter of eliminating 2 of them.

The one from Old Basing goes on to marry an Amelia Dec 1843 Baskingstoke and moves to Surrey for the 1851 census (both 48)where they have daughter Amelia age 16 born Basingstoke which suggests a previous marriage for one of them.

The one from Overton is with his wife Hannah on the 1841 and  1851 census so that rules him out.
I'd want to have a look at that marriage in Dec 1843 to see if Charles was a widower.

Ciderdrinker

[Annette7]

An Amelia Warwick bp.21/2/1836 Basingstoke, Hampshire, dau. of Amelia Warwick

Also, an Amelia Warwick married a Henry Noyes 18/5/1835 St. Giles in the Fields, London.

So many went to London for work, married there and then returned to their birthplace so a strong possibility.

I was hoping I could check the marriage date properly as it's on ancestry but the site seems to be playing up at the moment and I can't view the original document.   As you can see, Amelia the younger baptised the year after the marriage date.   Possible I guess - she could have been born prior to her mother marrying Henry Noyes and when mother returned back to Basingstoke and arranged the baptism the local vicar was well aware that she was unmarried when she had her daughter and recorded it as such.

Annette

[Greaves]

Ciderdrinker - thanks for your input. You say that I have the family in 1841, but I'm not totally convinced that I have. There is a Charles TAPLIN and a William TAPLIN both in the Basingstoke workhouse, but are they mine?

The Charles in the workhouse is given in most transcriptions as 81, though I have translated that as 51. Both ages are out. All that I know for certain is that Charles TAPLIN married Mary MANCEY on 25 Jan 1825 and that they had at least five children as detailed above. I think that the Charles TAPLIN that married Mary was born 14 Dec 1801 and baptised 20 Dec 1801, to John TAPLIN and Sarah WAKE. If true this means he should have been 39/40 in 1841.

The William in the workhouse is a much better fit being aged 10, as the son of Charles and Mary was baptised 02 Jan 1831.

So the big question is whether the Charles in the workhouse is the widowed husband of Mary and the father of William. Have a look at the image on Ancestry/FindMyPast and see what you think about the ages.

Meanwhile I will follow up on the 1843 marriage and see where it leads.

P.S. I forgot to mention that I think that the Charles baptised 20 Dec 1801 in Old Basing and the one baptised 21 Dec 1801 in Winslade are one and the same. The two parishes are adjacent, so maybe they were baptising the child in the local churches of both parents.

There is a marriage in Basingstoke on 28 Jun 1801 of a John TAPLIN and Sarah WAKE, with the groom being a widower. As far as I can see, the couple only had one child - Charles. This would be consistent with John being a widower, as he was probably a reasonable age at the time of the marriage.

Annette - the data about Amelia seems to tie in. I have now looked at the image for the marriage of Henry Noyes and Amelia Warwick on Ancestry. Most interestingly, the witnesses appear to be Henry Noyes and a William Taplin. The handwriting is not the easiest, but this would be a very interesting development.

I am now having serious doubts about the 1841 census reference for Charles.

[Greaves]

OK - a need to revise opinions about Charles TAPLIN, having followed up the 1843 marriage. This is what I have so far:

1835: Henry NOYES m Amelia WARWICK @ St Giles, Camden

1841C: East Street/Goats Lane, Basingstoke [HO107 385 4 26 12]
              Amelia Warwick (40), b Hamps
              Amelia Warwick (5), b Hamps
              Daniel Warwick (15), b Hamps
              William Murrell (40), b Hamps

1843: Charles TAPLIN m Amelia NOYES [Q4 1843 Basingstoke 7 149]

1851C: Worplesdon, Guildford, Surrey [HO107 1594 168 7]
              Charles TAPLIN (48), rail lab, b Basing, Hamps
              Amelia TAPLIN (48), wife, b Basingstoke, Hamps
              Amelia TAPLIN (16), glover, b Basingstoke, Hamps

1861C: Ash Common, Ash, Farnborough, Surrey [RG9 434 21 35]
              Charles TAPLIN (60), ag lab, b Old Basing, Hamps
              Amelia TAPLIN (59), wife, b Basingstoke, Hamps

1862: d Charles TAPLIN [Q1 1862 St Geo, Southwark 1d 101]

1863: d Amelia TAPLIN [Q2 1863 Farnborough 2a 72]

Question 1: If Amelia Warwick married Henry Noyes in 1835, why is she living with her daughter in Basingstoke in 1841 as a Warwick. What happened to Henry Noyes? I can find no death certificate.

Question 2: Who is Daniel Warwick?

Question 3: Where is Charles TAPLIN in 1841? Is he the Charles TAPLIN aged 81/51 in the workhouse?

Question 4: Why is Charles TAPLIN's death in Southwark, whilst his wife dies in Farnborough where the couple were living in 1861?

Question 5: Who is the Charles TAPLIN who died in 1864 in the Basingstoke Workhouse aged 61? Listed as a labourer and roughly the correct age for the Charles born in 1801.

I am now rather confused. What do people suggest?

[Annette7]

Whilst I can't answer your specific questions - not an easy line to follow especially in 1841 - I can add a little to the confusion.

An Amelia Mercer married a Thomas Warwick 15/4/1820 Mapledurwell, Hampshire

Daniel Warwick bp.19/8/1821 Nutley, son of Thomas and Amelia
George bp.4/1/1824 Easton,             ditto
Henry Warwick bp.6/1/1826 Basingstoke, son of Thomas and Amelia - bur.9/1/1826 Basingstoke
Thomas Henry bp.20/12/1826 Basingstoke, son of Thomas and Amelia.
Elijah bp.30/8/1829 Bishops Sutton, son of Thomas and Amelia - bur.30/10/1834 Basingstoke

Thomas Warwick bc.1798 bur.29/3/1830 Eling, Hampshire - same Thomas?

When dau. Amelia baptised 1836 only parent shown is Amelia Warwick - so looks like she was a widow by then so Thomas must have died between 1829 and 1836 and not apparently the father of Amelia baptised 1836.   

Amelia Messer bp.15/3/1801 Basingstoke, dau. of James and Jane.   This birthplace/birthdate ties in with the Amelia Noyes who subsequently married Charles Taplin.

So, Amelia Mercer/Messer born 1801 Basingstoke marries Thomas Warwick in 1820
      Thomas Warwick died 1829 to 1835
      Amelia Warwick marries Henry Noyes in 1835 - both have been widowed.
      1841 Amelia back to calling herself Warwick with 2 of her children.  No sign of Henry Noyes so
      did he desert her soon after the marriage and after the standard 7 years he was declared dead
      leaving her free to marry Charles Taplin?

However, none of this is helping to find Charles Taplin in 1841 - I don't believe he is the one in the workhouse - census is quite distinct and the age of that one is clearly 80.  Your Charles just appears to be missing as I can't find him anywhere.

Annette 
     

[Greaves]

I am now wondering whether Charles died in Southwark in 1862 or returned to Basingstole to die in the workhouse in 1864. Might be interesting to see Amelia's death certificate from 1863. Was she a widow? If so, then he probably died in Southwark, if not possibly Basingstoke.

[Annette7]

NBI shows Amelia Taplin aged 62 buried Ash, Surrey in 1863 - no full date given for burial. 

After burying his 2nd wife did Charles return to Basingstoke and the death reg'd there Dec.1864 is him?   There is no Charles Taplin in Basingstoke itself in 1861.  I don't think he's the one died Southwark.

Annette

[Greaves]

OK - I have bit the bullet and ordered two certificates: the marriage of Charles and Amelia in 1843 and the death of Amelia in 1863. Together, they should tell us something. I will report back once they arrive.

Meanwhile, whilst we have made some possible progress on Charles, the problem of William's death remains. He certainly did not die in 1846, as I believed, as he was not 7 in 1846 and not the son of a tailor named Richard Taplin.

If we are saying that the Charles in the Basingstoke workhouse was not the father of William, is the William in the workhouse the son of my Charles and Mary? He is the right age (10), given that he was baptised 02 Jan 1831.

There is also the problem that the other child Charles has not been located in 1841. He was baptised 07 Apr 1833, so would have been 8 in 1841. Could he be the Charles in the workhouse in 1841, his age being written as 81, where the 1 is a dash or mark?