Missing Ancestor's Birth

[Bram Taylor]

I can see and follow that Rachel Abbott, daughter of Thomas Abbott  married William Thomas Sewell but you don't seem to refer to her as your maternal grandmother - only as the wife of your maternal grandfather.
Does this mean that as far as direct line is concerned you do not connect to Thomas Abbott.

However, your uncle is Thomas William Abbott. Again, you have  his line and he is connected to Rachel Abbott but is his also only a connection to you through marriage and not blood related?
Did he marry your blood relative aunt?
It just helps to clarify the situation and also you want to find out the link between Blakey H and Thomas.

Hi Heywood
Thomas William Abbott was married to my mother's sister, Martha Prestige Sewell and their son, Gordon is my cousin an ex Coldstream Guard who lives near me in Australia.
Bram

[heywood]

Thank you.

Where do you have George as Joseph's father?

[Bram Taylor]

Here they are.
Thomas William Abbott b 17 December 1902 in Nelson, Lancs,
Married Martha Prestidge Sewell 05 Mar 1927 at the Salvation Army in Nelson

Atkinson Abbott b 1 April 1880 Barnoldswick, Yorks,
Married Annie Elizabeth Dawson, (2nd wife) 09 Dec 1899 in Nelson

Broughton Abbott b 09 May 1855, Barnoldswick, Yorks
Married Eliza Garner (2 Wife) , 26 Jan 1876, Gill Church, Barnoldswick

Thomas Hartley Abbott, (Habbet) b 04 Feb 1829, Heptonstall, Yorks
Married, Rachel Atkinson 28 Jul 1851 Barnoldswick

Joseph Abbott, Baptised 04 Nov 1786 at Wakefield All Saints Church, Wakefield,
Son of George and Sarah Abbott  Ref D30 Page 46

Page 224, Entry No. 671
Marriage of Joseph Abbott
7 February 1819, Burnley St Peter
Joseph Abbott,    Of This Chapelry,    Weaver, Bachelor
Alice Riding,    Of This Chapelry,    Weaver, Spinster
Married by Banns.
Witnesses:
In the Presence of James Hey and James Hargreaves

The reason for this post/thread is we can find nothing further about Joseph and Alice except their children that they obviously had;
PR 3027/1/9
Baptism at  Burnley St Peters
Olive Abbott
Page 362, Entry No. 2958
9 January 1820
Abode: Hunslet, (Told; in the Parish of Leeds, Co. of York".)
Father Joseph Abbott, Cloth 'Dresser?'
Mother: Alice

Thomas Abbott b Abt. 1825, Pateley Bridge, Yorks
Buried  14 Oct 1828 at Church of England, Colne, Lancs

Thomas Hartley Abbott b 04 Feb 1829, Heptonstall, Yorks
Married Rachel Atkinson, 28 Jul 1851, Barnoldswick

IGI Christening Reference shows father as Joseph Abbott and Alice.
THOMAS ABBOTT
 bapt 31 MAR 1829   Heptonstall, Yorkshire
Parents: JOSEPH & Alice ABBOTT, Occupation: Rag Gatherer

============
1851 Census:
Windy Bank, Colne Lancashire
HO107/2254/ 83 p 23.
Colne, Lancashire
Blakey Hartley,  Head, age 65 Rag Dealer, b. Colne, Lancashire
Betty Hartley,    Wife   age 62                   b. Colne, Lancashire
Thomas Abbott,          age 22 Tailor,          b. Hepponstall, Yorkshire
======================================================

HO107/2254 Burnley   Colne
Folio: 383
Page: 23
=======
1861 Census:
Orchard Cottages, Barnoldswick, Yorkshire

Thomas Abbott,      Head age 32, Tailor                  b. Heptonstall, Yorkshire
Rachel Abbott ,      wife  age 30   Cotton Weaver     b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Blakely Abbott        son   age 8                              b. Barnoldswick Yorkshire
Broughton Abbott,  son age  5                                b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Matilda Abbott,       dau  age 3                               b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire

RG9/3184  Skipton   Barnoldswick
Folio: 66
Page: 36
===========================
1871 Census:
Church Street Little Marsden Lancs

Thomas Abbott,         Head  age 42 Tailor b. Keplemstall(?), Yorkshire
Rachel Abbott,          Wife   age 41 Cotton Weaver b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Broughton Abbott,     Son    age 16 Cotton Weaver b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Atkinson  Abbott,      Son   age    9 b. Barnoldswick, Yorkshire
Ellen Ann Abbott,      Dau   age    4 b. Marsden, Lancashire
Thos William Abbott, Son   age    1 b. Marsden, Lancashire

RG10/4155  Burnley
Folio: 157
Page: 16
=============================================================
Death Source:
June Quarter, 1873
Burnley District, Lancashire

Hope that fills in a few of the gaps, if I/we could only find Joseph in the 1841/1851 census or - his earlier death that would join the dots?

Regards,
Bram Taylor

These men are all direct sons of the person next in the chain?

[heywood]

You have worked very hard!

If you only have George as the father of Joseph in Wakefield, that Joseph died. I posted the death at the beginning of this thread.

That would then leave you with no parents for Joseph, I know, but leave other searches open.

[Bram Taylor]

Hi heywood
You may remember I had (briefly) found a marriage of a Joseph Abbott to a 'Margaret' a while back which I thought may be a second wife of Josephs before my Internet Explorer died and I lost it again and now can not find it but I thought he may have re-married? For what it is worth, here is a reference to an identical arrangement with no claims as to it's usefulness or otherwise. Your opinion would be appreciated though?

Bram

1851 Census for Joseph Abbott and Margaret
Name: Joseph Abbott
Age: 64
Linen Weaver
Estimated birth year: abt 1787
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Margaret Abbott
Gender: Male
Where born: Dacre, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Thruscross
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Pateley Bridge
Sub-registration district: Ramsgill
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 9
Piece: 2280
Folio: 155
Page Number: 3
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Abbott 64
Margaret Abbott 63
Thomas Abbott 23
Disregard this one, Thomas was an Ag Lab and ours is a Tailor,

[Bram Taylor]

You have worked very hard!

If you only have George as the father of Joseph in Wakefield, that Joseph died. I posted the death at the beginning of this thread.

That would then leave you with no parents for Joseph, I know, but leave other searches open.

I will go along with that, but then we have this to fall back on:
Page 224, Entry No. 671
Marriage of Joseph Abbott
7 February 1819
Burnley St Peter
Joseph Abbott,    Of This Chapelry,    Weaver, Bachelor
Alice Riding,    Of This Chapelry,    Weaver, Spinster
Married by Banns.
Witnesses:
In the Presence of James Hey and James Hargreaves
=================
This becomes the only solid information left on OUR Joseph, their marriage with no father given unless it is recorded somewhere else? We really need to be able to open this marriage up but at the moment I am at a loss? Also You get back to the Censuses again but where are they???

Bram

[dobfarm]

Various quotes from this  thread

1851 Census:
Windy Bank,Colne Lancashire
HO107/2254/383 p 23

==================
Blakey Hartley,  Head, age 65 Rag Dealer, b. Colne, Lancashire
Betty Hartley,    Wife   age 62                   b. Colne, Lancashire
Thomas Abbott, Son age 22 Tailor,          b. Heptonstall, Yorkshire

===================
Here is the Marriage of Thomas Abbott, his father:
Marriage, 21 July 1851, The Parish Church, parish of Barnoldswick, County of York
Thomas Habbet, 22, Bachelor, Tailor, Residence at Time of Marriage, Barnoldswick
Father's name: Blakey Hartley, Labourer
Rachel Atkinson, 20, Spinster, Tailor, (Do), Residence at time of Marriage, Barnoldswick
Father, Thomas Atkinson, Tailor
Witnesses: Broughton Atkinson & Richard Hiddup
----------------------------------------------------------

Blakey Hartley married Betty Brown 31st August 1822, St Bartholomew's, Colne (From Keyboard)

***************************************************************************************************************************

THOMAS ABBOTT
Christening:  31 MAR 1829   Heptonstall, Yorkshire, England

Parents:
Father:  JOSEPH ABBOTT, Occupation: Rag Gatherer - ??
Mother:  ALICE

[Bram Taylor]

Hi Dobfarm

Thanks for that, I actually posted that early on in proceedings as this: but I am at this very moment trying to find Thomas in the 1841 because he certainly survived long past it! But thanks for your searching, I'll get him one day!! It was weird that Thomas for some reason called Blakey Hartley his father on his marriage certificate and his name is spelt Habbet!! He is certainly invisible! I am trying all types of spelling to find him in 1841 but - Nothing!! Not that will prove much if his dad is not with him too?

Bram

 'IGI Christening Reference shows father as Joseph Abbott and Alice.
THOMAS ABBOTT
Christening:  31 MAR 1829   Heptonstall, Yorkshire, England

Parents:
Father:  JOSEPH ABBOTT, Occupation: Rag Gatherer
Mother:  ALICE
Source Information:
Batch No.:  Dates:  Source Call No.:  Type:  Printout Call No.:  Type:
C007482  1813 - 1847  0990611, 0990612   Film  6909606   Film   Sheet: 00
============================================================

[heywood]

We don't want to digress too much - it's becoming repetitive and more complicated. 
Just to confirm the death of Joseph born in Wakefield - here is it is:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5B2-Q8S

dobfarm,
1851 census - Thomas Abbott is not described as 'son' . The census shows 'Un'.

However, his marriage shows Blakey Hartley as his father and the attachment to the man/name continues through naming of children.

There are a couple of Blakey Hartleys but it is not confirmed where he is in 1841.

Thomas Abbott has not been found in 1841.

The christening of Thomas to parents Joseph and Alice in Heptonstall would seem to confirm it is the same Thomas as he gives his place of birth as Heptonstall in subsequent censuses.

It is interesting to note as dobfarm has highlighted that Joseph Abbott was a rag gatherer in the baptism record and Blakey Hartley is a rag dealer in 1851.

As Bram says - 1841 could be the key.

Habbet/Abbott variations are understandable - if you are illiterate, you are dependant on the person who writes your name.