Author Topic: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?  (Read 5085 times)

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #27 on: Wednesday 22 March 23 00:15 GMT (UK) »
I think upon scrutinizing the registrar's district it reads New Kilmainham, so I am just in the process of trying to locate that now.

Kilmainham is just to the west of Dublin city center, on the south side. Near Heuston station.

From 1868, New Kilmainham comprised the townlands of Kilmainham, Goldenbridge North, Inchicore North, Inchicore South, and Butchers Arms. Its total area was 580 acres (230 ha) and the population was 5,391 in 1881 and 6,519 in 1891.[6] It became an urban district under the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898.[7] In 1900, the urban district was abolished and the area was transferred from the county into the jurisdiction of the city of Dublin as the New Kilmainham ward.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Sinann

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #28 on: Thursday 23 March 23 21:52 GMT (UK) »
Thomas O'Ryan CC appears twice in the newspapers in 1901 and 1906 with the address Golden Bridge,
He's still crossing out Roman in 1919
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09695/5516515.pdf
and it appears he becomes PP in Rollestown and is still crossing out Roman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1926/09114/5296609.pdf
but his predecessor didn't cross out Roman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1924/09164/5314472.pdf
in 1931 he's transferred as PP to St Audoen's, haven't even tried to look there but it seems the crossing out was a Thomas O'Ryan thing.

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #29 on: Thursday 23 March 23 22:43 GMT (UK) »
People still don't seem to get it.

The use of "Roman Catholic" was British imposed, as they were of the view that the CofE was "Catholic", and hence was a "Catholic Church".

Internally, the Catholic Church is simply the Catholic Church, and many clergy resented the English imposition of "Roman Catholic".
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Sinann

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #30 on: Thursday 23 March 23 23:58 GMT (UK) »
The point I was trying to make is it's the same priest each time, I'm trying to find some reference to the name of the Golden Bridge church associated with him other than simply Golden Bridge. He went on to be a PP so he may have an obituary.


Offline EMLaga

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #31 on: Friday 24 March 23 00:36 GMT (UK) »
And my initial inquiry was really about the Church of Golden Bridge, which I still haven't got anywhere with.

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #32 on: Friday 24 March 23 01:22 GMT (UK) »
And my initial inquiry was really about the Church of Golden Bridge, which I still haven't got anywhere with.

Unsurprising, given the original focus of this thread, which you tied into.

If the  church itself is what is of interest, then you should post a query on that specific topic, in the Dublin forum.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline shanreagh

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #33 on: Friday 24 March 23 06:28 GMT (UK) »
People still don't seem to get it.

The use of "Roman Catholic" was British imposed, as they were of the view that the CofE was "Catholic", and hence was a "Catholic Church".

Internally, the Catholic Church is simply the Catholic Church, and many clergy resented the English imposition of "Roman Catholic".

Not entirely.  Not really about the 'hated English' per se.  Perhaps about any protestant religion

The Anglican church also talks of the 'catholic church' in the Nicene creed.
We say
"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.'

Catholic has a dictionary meaning of  'all embracing'.

The idea that I have is that catholic mean all embracing and having been baptised once in any church you don't need to be rebaptised to join any other church. My grandfather who trained as a Catholic priest, then left and later married my grandmotherr  was very clear on this. 

His oldest two children were baptised by a travelling Anglican priest here in NZ were taken from his home when he was away, under protest by my grandmother who had just recently given birth by parishioners of the local RC church and ostensibly baptised again.   He apparently was apoplectic about this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed#:~:text=The%20Nicene%20Creed%20of%20325,very%20God%20of%20very%20God.%22

I have the feeling that scholars like my grandfather (died 1940) was did not tend to go much on trying to make differences out of Catholic/Roman Catholic.  I know though that some did and that is fine too. 

But I know it did happen. 

Offline heywood

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #34 on: Friday 24 March 23 07:20 GMT (UK) »
I agree shanreagh.
I don’t have Wexflyer’s knowledge of Ireland but it seems that the terms were interchangeable.It is the same in UK.
Father O’ Ryan was presumably in favour of the term ‘Catholic’ but may not have been representative of the clergy.
‘Roman Catholic’ (to describe followers of the Roman Rite as opposed to other Catholic followers e.g. Eastern rite) is still used in official documents in Ireland.

However, back to the query. I think this was already mentioned earlier in the thread but in the census, Fr O’Ryan was living in Vincent Street. It does look to be the church which was part of the Industrial School,complex.
1901 Form B1
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003702653/

1911 B1
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000131481/

There is a map here which shows the Presbytery on St Vincents Street and the various buildings around, including St Vincent’s R C church attached to the convent.

http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/DublinGoldenBridgeIS/

There are several priests living in Tyrconnell Road, New Kilmainham DED, which, in form B1 is noted as ‘The Presbytery’, Inchicore Roman Catholic Church. That may be St Michael’s.

I hope this helps.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Sinann

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #35 on: Friday 24 March 23 10:36 GMT (UK) »
Found his obit
He died in 1943
Ordained in 1893 he was Diocesan Examiner and later curate at St.Jame's, Dublin and Goldenbridge. He was chaplain at Kilmainham during the 1916 Rising. He was later appointed PP at Garristown and eleven years ago he was appointed to St. Audoen's.

Yet again it just says Goldenbridge, I think it has to be the church attached to the convent or the Christian Brother's school.