MacGregors, Callander

[ElaineSK]

There was a tribe of MacGregors in Rannoch, so tenants of the duke of Atholl, who therefore used his name Murray when MacGregor was still proscribed. Might explain your Murray MacGregor origins?

Skoosh.

Thanks, I'll check that out.  My McGregor family lived in the Cowford Cottages outside Bankfoot and not far from Auchtergaven, these cottages and farm was owned by Blair Atholl.  My great grandfather William Scott McGregor was born illegitimately  to Charles daughter Helen McGregor, at some point in his life he took on his father's surname Scott (farmer of the Cowford farm) and Scott was his son,my Grandfather's surname but he had McGregor as a middle name.

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi Elaine,

Have you seen the obituary in The Chronicles of the Atholl and Tullibardine Families Volume IV? In case you haven't, here it is;

January 12th 1892. The Duke lost the services of John MacGregor, head-wood-forester for thirty years, who died at Ladywell of influenza and inflammation of the lungs. His wife had been ill for some time of the same complaint, and only survived him two days. The double funeral took place at Little Dunkeld on the 18th, the pipers of the Athole Highlanders attending, and the members of the Dunkeld Curling Club parading in uniform.
John MacGregor was son of the late Charles MacGregor, formerly in the service of the 4th Duke, James Lord Glenlyon, and the 6th Duke. John had served in the Athole Highlanders since 1842, in which corps he was a sergeant at the time of his death.

Looking through all the volumes, Charles MacGregor is mentioned on 24 April 1830 as a Wood Forester of Blair Atholl.

Looking at the statuary records I can follow Charles and his family back to his wedding to Helen Low in 1816, but no further back. I can't find a christening. Did you get Caputh as his birth place from the census records? And his parents John and Mary Young from his death certificate? Or do you have a christening record?

The Chronicles of the Atholl and Tullibardine Families list the Head Foresters as;

Before 1794 to 1838 John Crerar
1838 to 1847 Peter Fraser
1847 to 1864 Alexander McAra
1864 to after 1884 Donald McBeath

So, it looks like Head Wood-Forester was a different job to Head Forester. I though that John Crerar could be Charles' father using a clan Gregor alias, but the chronicles say John Crerar's wife was Annie Stewart.

How do you know Charles' father was born in 1758 at Cullintogle?

I have that family as;

1751 Donald McLeran[McKinlay]/Mary McLeran John Miln of Leny Callander
1752 Donald McLeran [McGregor]/Mary McLeran Patrick Blairgarrie Callander
1753 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Duncan Cullintogle Callander
1756 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Janet Milntown Callander
1758 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran John Cullintogle Callander
1760 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Margaret Cullintogle Callander
1762 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren John Milntown Callander
1766 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren Daniel Miltown Callander

So, John 1758 may have died young, as there's a John 1762, or I might have conflated two different families. How do you connect this Donald to the Donald christened in 1733? I have the parish register entry, but I don't know what evidence there is that this is the same Donald;

1733 Patrick Stirling alias McGregor/Janet Ferguson Donald Achnakarran Callander

How do you connect this Patrick to Glencarnoch? Glencarnoch's descendant, Amelia Georgiana Murray MacGregor of MacGregor, wrote several histories at the end of the Nineteenth Century. She says his son;

Peter who married and left one daughter [who was] married to Mr John Gregorson an officer in the 2d Royal Americans.

Peter's nephew by his youngest brother, Sir John Murray of Lanrick, was elected chief in 1775, presumably because there were no surviving male children from his father's brothers. This supports Amelia's claim that Peter didn't leave a son.

John.

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi Elaine,

Another note I have about this family;

1751 Donald McLeran[McKinlay]/Mary McLeran John Miln of Leny Callander
1752 Donald McLeran [McGregor]/Mary McLeran Patrick Blairgarrie Callander
1753 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Duncan Cullintogle Callander
1756 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Janet Milntown Callander
1758 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran John Cullintogle Callander
1760 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Margaret Cullintogle Callander
1762 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren John Milntown Callander
1766 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren Daniel Miltown Callander

is that it could be the same couple as;

1769 Daniel McGregor/Mary McLaren Daniel Drunkey Port of Monteith

And, if so, he could be the brother of;

1767 Duncan Mcgregor+Janet Campbell Port of Monteith
1768 Duncan McGregor/Janet Campbell Patrick Drunkey Port of Monteith

1776 Duncan Mcgregor+Isabel Frazer Port of Monteith
1777 Duncan Mcgregor/Isabel Frazer Margaret Port of Monteith
1777 Duncan Mcgregor/Isabel Frazer Patrick Drunkie Port of Monteith

But I'm not so sure about this.

I also have a note that he could be the Donald McComas of Callander who married Grisal McLeran of Port in 1747, and Grisal is Mary. This is very tenuous, but the MacGregors who used the alias McComas were a large family in the area. If he was the same person, then he may have been the brother of Alexander, who lived at Milntown and Brig O' Turk, and Alexander was most likely the son of John and Anne Ferguson.

John.

[ElaineSK]

Hi John

Thanks for your replies, am on here for short time so I'll copy and paste the information from our book of Charles McGregor which a distant relative of mine who is also connected to Charles McGregor got an archivist onto our McGregor line around Charles and father John and son John..I'll copy and paste the excerpts from the copy of the book that Myra sent me from New Zealand.
~~~~~~~~----------------------------------
Your great-great-great-grandfather Charles McGregor was born in Caputh, Perthshire, about 1786, according to Census records, and died on 26th March 1868, at Cowford Cottage, Auchtergaven. On his death certificate his parents were John McGregor and Mary Young, but I  have not yet found his birth details.  He married Helen Lowe in Dunkeld , perhaps  in the church in the photo, on 10th March 1816. She was born in  1796,  in Little Dunkeld , to Peter Lowe and Janet Gow.  In the 1851 Census Record for John McGregor, the son of Charles and Helen, I found Helen’s mother, Janet Lowe, listed as his Grandmother, a retired midwife.  I also found her in the 1841 Census, again her occupation is midwife. Charles’ wife Helen  died in Kinnaird in 1839 aged 43. Charles died 26 March 1868 at Cowford Cottage,  Auchtergaven, and is buried in Little Dunkeld

1870 – In memory of CHARLES MCGREGOR who died at Cowford 26th March 1868 aged 81 years and of  HELEN LOWE, his wife, who died at Kinnaird 8th September 1839 aged 43 years and of JAMES GLENLYON, their son, who died at Kinnaird 29th September 1838 aged 7 years, also of their daughter MARGARET who died at Airthrey 5th February 1874 aged  38 years and was buried in Logie Churchyard and of  JANE ANDERSON, wife of  JOHN McGREGOR their son, who died at Ladywell 6th January 1875, also of the
above named JOHN McGREGOR, Wood Manager on the Atholl Estates, who died at Ladywell 12th January 1892 aged 69 and of his second wife ANNIE GRAW who died at Ladywell 14th January 1892 buried hee together 15th January 1892.


The details of his employment I got first from Census Records, but a friend, Peter Stewart, had a G-G-G-Grandfather who was a ghillie (gamekeeper)  for the Duke of Atholl around the same time as Charles was there.  Peter owns a whole set of books called “The Chronicles of  Atholl and Tullibardine Families” which is a diary of the daily happenings in the Atholl Estate. There are quite a few references to Charles McGregor in it, which Peter allowed me to copy, and I have reproduced them here.   Note that the spelling is sometimes McGrigor.

As you see, the children were all born in different places, which I have to assume is a result of their father’s occupation, as he would have moved around as a forester for the Duke of Atholl’s Estate, starting as a Ground Officer, and later becoming the Head Forester. This copy of some of the Perthshire parishes shows that these places were very near to or even bounded each other. 

Their children were:
Janet McGregor born 11 March 1817 at Dunkeld, Mary McGregor born  7  January 1819 at Dunkeld
John  McGregor born  9  February 1823 at Logierait
Helen McGregor born 18 January 1825 at Logierait -my great great Grandmother
Patrick McGregor born 17 January1827 at Forteviot
Jean McGregor born  5 January 1829 at Little Dunkeld
James Glenlyon McGregor born 19 May 1831 at Blair Atholl
Ann McGregor, born 29 June 1833 at Moulin
Margaret McGregor born 4 June 1935 at Moulin

[ElaineSK]

part 2:

Blair Castle. in Perthshire,  is the centre of a designed and heavily wooded landscape, begun by the 4th or “Planting Duke”. Before he died in 1830, he had covered some 10,000 acres of Perthshire with over 14,000,000 larches, and his nurseries were supplying seed and seedlings to other Scottish enthusiasts.

This is one of Scotlands oldest managed forests and was created from larch seed brought from the Alps for the Second Duke of Atholl. Such plantings were part of the great expansion of forestry in the eighteenth and early nineteenth century which centred on Perthshire. Between 1738 and 1830 the `Planting` Dukes of Atholl planted some 27 million conifers - `for beauty and profit` - around Dunkeld. Many innovative techniques were employed including scattering seed by cannon.

 Many of the original trees are still there, so just think that if we could visit there, we might see trees which were planted and looked after by Charles McGregor. Ecology and carbon footprints are not new to Scotland!  Most of the landscape features were established during the 18th and 19th centuries. The castle has been the home of the Dukes of Atholl since before the Crusades.  At the time Charles McGregor was Head Forester, and his family were there, his employer was the 6th Duke, whose  wife was Anne Home Drummond, who was Lady-in-Waiting and Mistress of the robes to Queen Victoria. (More of her later).

This 6th Duke, as Lord Glenlyon,  formed the Atholl Highlanders in 1839 as his personal bodyguard. In 1844, when Queen Victoria stayed at Blair Castle, the Atholl Highlanders provided the guard for the Queen. So impressed was she with their turnout that she ordered they be presented with colours, giving them official status as a British regiment.( More of them later, too.)

In addition to the information I got from Peter, I wrote to the Blair Castle Archivist who was good enough to send me copies of letters, written by Charles, which I have transcribed and included here: - Just think that he wrote these letters about 170 years ago. The spelling, grammar and handwriting are not too bad, are they?
Of course, he was a “humble and obedient servant”!

Now, to backtrack to the Chronicles, there was another entry about Charles’ son John:



There are quite a few interesting facts about John McGregor. The Archivist at Blair Castle also sent me some details about him, including this photo, and the fact that he was a Sergeant in the  “Atholl Highlanders”.  .

This is the only private army in Britain and was started by the 4th Duke.  Fifty years later, the 6th Duke resurrected the Atholl Highlanders as a bodyguard.  In 1844 Queen Victoria stayed at Blair Castle as a guest of the Duke and during this visit the Queen announced that she would present the regiment with colours in recognition of their service.

Queen Victoria visited Blair Castle on a number of occasions which are all recorded in her diary.  In 1865 she writes about going out riding with a group accompanied by her servant Brown. (Remember Billy Connolly as Brown in the film “Mrs Brown”)
They became lost in the mist, and in her diary she says

“There was by this time heavy driving rain with a thick mist. About a little more than an hour took us to the March, where two of the Dunkeld men met us. John McGregor, the Duke’s head wood-forester, and Gregor McGregor , the Duke’s gamekeeper, the former acting as a guide”.

I spent some time  looking at Google for any connection between Blair Castle and Queen Victoria, and I found a few articles describing rumours that Queen Victoria and John Brown had married. It seems that there are some diaries of the time which state this. Much to my surprise I found John McGregor mentioned in some of the articles.

There are 2 photos of John son of Charles in his uniform as Sergeant in the Atholl Highlanders. 


Back to me: As you can see from the above excerpts the archivist certainly furnished Myra with a lot of indepth information, it is quite a thick book of maps and copies of Charles McGregor's letters as Head Forester.  There is so much more which I haven't really looked fully at.  I have given the copy of the book of photocopies Myra sent me to my son who is getting married next week, he has been fitted and ordered the McGregor tartan Highland Dress, I think it is the ancient colour so I very much look forward to seeing him in all his full tartan.  We, my family, are intending in the next few months to go to Blair Atholl Castle to walk the grounds of my great, great, great Grandfather and great, great uncle John.  Hope this helps tie up my McGregors.  I will look closer at all your information the next time I am on the computer. Bye for now.

[Forfarian]

He married Helen Lowe in Dunkeld , perhaps  in the church in the photo

In 1816, it's very unlikely indeed that they were married in the church building. The normal place for a wedding ceremony was the bride's parents' home or, if she had no parents or was marrying a long way from home, in the manse or in her employer's house. Towards the end of the 19th century it became more popular to marry in a hotel, restaurant or hall. Weddings in a church were very much the exception until the 20th century.

[ElaineSK]

I would add that my great, great, great, great Grandfather John McGrigor who was born in Cullingtogle which is in Callander, on30th October 1758 and baptised on 1st November 1758 in Callander...his father was Donald McGrigor who married Mary McLeran. I have a copy of John McGrigor's birth certificate. Can I upload it on here? 

[ElaineSK]

He married Helen Lowe in Dunkeld , perhaps  in the church in the photo

In 1816, it's very unlikely indeed that they were married in the church building. The normal place for a wedding ceremony was the bride's parents' home or, if she had no parents or was marrying a long way from home, in the manse or in her employer's house. Towards the end of the 19th century it became more popular to marry in a hotel, restaurant or hall. Weddings in a church were very much the exception until the 20th century.

I can only quote what Myra mentioned, she is only presuming so you could be right, I presume most of her information is from the Archivist who is attached to Blair Atholl.  I hope to book this Archivist on the day me and my family visit the Castle from where I stay, in Fife not too far away.

Edit: Had a look at the saved images I have on Scotland's People. the marriage details of Helen Low/Lowe is that they got married in Little Dunkeld, her parents are Peter Low and Jean Gow both from Perthshire.

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi Elaine,

Yes, I think the parish registers record the reading of banns, not the actual wedding, which is why there are sometimes two entries, with slightly different dates, when the bride and groom attend different churches. However, your ancestors would have gone to that church, or a church which stood on the same site. When I was in Balquhidder, I walked from my ancestors' house to the kirk, along the path several generations of my family would have walked.

I am intrigued how you connect your John to Coilantogle, which is only about 50 miles away from the Atholl Estates, but would have been a journey of several days back then. Firstly, as I said before, it would mean that I have conflated two families, because of the baptism of another John in 1762. The mill at Blargarry is right next to Coilantogle, with Portnellan between the two, which is why I had assumed it was the same family. But their names are common, so it could be two different families with the same parental names. Looking at the dates, and not just the years, it looks like I am definitely wrong about the first John at the Mill of Leny. So, there is one set;

18/08/1751 Donald McLeran[McKinlay]/Mary McLeran John Miln of Leny Callander

Who is probably not even a MacGregor. Then. if your John is the Coilantogle John baptised 1758, there is another set;

20/05/1753 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Duncan Cullintogle Callander
01/11/1758 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran John Cullintogle Callander
13/04/1760 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Margaret Cullintogle Callander

And then a third set;

08/03/1752 Donald McLeran [McGregor]/Mary McLeran Patrick Blairgarrie Callander
16/03/1756 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Janet Milntown Callander
30/09/1762 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren John Milntown Callander
05/01/1766 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren Daniel Miltown Callander

But I have to say, given the gaps in the dates, and the proximity of the locations, the two families above still look like the same family to me.

The second reason why I'm interested in your connection of John to Coilantogle is that by my calculation there were two other families of MacGregors living there for several generations. Both families used the alias of Drummond, after James Drummond, the 3rd Duke of Perth, who owned the estate until his death and the land seizures following the Jacobite rising of 1745. I think both families married women from my family tree, hence my interest. My family is the MacGregor branch of Dougal Ciar, or Glengyle, and they had a habit of marrying their cousins. So, the fact that the two families lived at the same location, and used the same alias, suggests they were brothers, or cousins. And the fact that they appear to have both married into the Glengyle family hints that they might also be from that family. But the only thing that connects them to your family above is the location. Although, they could have been siblings, or cousins.

I've already mentioned the McComas family, who lived near by, and may have been Glengyles. There was also a large family who used the alias Lyon, and lived at Blargarry. They also married into my family, but there is no obvious link to the family of Donald and Mary of Coilantogle.

I can give you more information about the MacGregors/Drummonds of Coilantogle if you think they might be linked, or even the McComas and Lyons, but I don't want to swamp you with data if there is no firm connection.

In the mean time, you may be interested in the Reports on the Annexed Estates, which details the confiscated lands and the lives of the people following the uprising. Coilantogle is in the Barony of Strathgartney.

https://www.chuckspeed.com/balquhidder/history/reports_annexed_estates.htm#_Toc189038803

John.