Thomas Thompson of Carlton in Cleveland. Help required

[PaulThommo]

My 3x Great Grandfather Thomas Thompson had 3 sons Robert b.circa 1804, chr. 11/04/1810 Stokesley. He is my 3x G Grandfather and I have all info about him. Thomas b. circa 1807-11 and John  chr. 30/03/1815 Carlton in Cleveland and again I have all information about him but the 2 Thomas's are proving to be a bit of a mystery, it also doesn't help that it is such a common name.
What I know:
Thomas (snr). Was born circa 1772/3. On the 1841 census he is living at C in C, a farmer, aged 68-72  birthplace is Yorkshire with 2 of his sons Thomas (jnr) aged 30-34 and John aged 25-29 again both of Yorkshire.

Robert (the other son)  moved north and married my 3x G Grandmother Margery Jefferson in Dec 1824 at Jarrow, Durham. A Thomas Thompson was a witness at the wedding. I assume it will be snr and not jnr as the witness as jnr would have been too young.

The 1851 census has Thomas (snr) living with John (his son) and wife Jane at their farm (of 68 acres) in C in C, he is a widow and retired farmer aged 79. Unfortunately the where born box for Thomas is blank (which doesn't help). John is absent on the census but is classified as head of the household. I can only assume that the farm belonged to Thomas (snr) and was taken over by John.

The 1861 census has John, Jane and a niece and nephew at the farm (were there names for farms in those days as one isn't mentioned?). No mention of Thomas, I assume he passed away 1851-1861. The family are still at the farm in 1871 and 1881 but by 1891 John and Jane have retired to Osmotherley.

The 1841 census does not have a wife for Thomas so I presume she passed away prior to the census.

The only clue to Thomas's wife was on the birth registration of John that states his mother as Dorothy. I have found a marriage between Thomas Thompson and Dorothy Paul at Osmotherley on 10/04/1798 which fits in well. I have also found a death for Dorothy Thompson in 1825 at Osmotherley who was born in 1775.  A Dorothy Paul was christened in Osmotherley on 18 Dec 1775 her father was Robert Paul, a Robert Paul was a witness at the wedding so I am hoping that is all correct.

There are 2 other births for a Thomas Thompson and Dorothy, Mary Thompson chr. 11/01/1799 and Dorothy Thompson chr. 06/04/1800, both at Osmotherley. I hope this is the same and correct family.

What I am trying to find:
Where Thomas (snr) was and when born, could be nearly impossible as only Yorkshire known and 1772/3 as DoB.

The death of Thomas (snr), the best I can find is a Thomas Thompson b. 1773 d. Osmotherley 1857 and one d. Stokesley July-Sept 1857 (could be the same death). I haven't applied for a death certificate yet.

Thomas (jnr). Unable to find a birth registration 1811-1815 and no idea where he went to after the 1841 census.

Phew, I hope that all makes sense, if any of you wonderful Rootschatters are able to assist in any way I would be so grateful. Thanks, Paul

[tillypeg]

The GRO index shows death for Thomas Thompson S1857 Stokesley 09D 311 aged 84.

Osmotherley Parish Register shows burial of Thomas Thompson on 22 July 1857, of Carlton, aged 84, at St Peter & St Paul, Osmotherley.

Yorkshire Memorial Inscriptions dataset on FindMyPast for St Peter, Osmotherley lists Thomas Thompson died 1857 aged 84 so there must be/have been a headstone on the grave.

[PaulThommo]

Thanks Tillypeg, I think that will be the correct person, age matches, death in right period and from Carlton. I am actually in the NE of England at the moment and have plans to go down to Osmotherley and Carlton in Cleveland next week to snoop around. I think his son and wife (who retired to Osmotherley) could also be buried in the graveyard, here's hoping I can find them.
Many thanks for your prompt reply, I appreciate it. Paul

[tillypeg]

A long shot but possibly Thomas senior's baptism?? - Showing on FindMyPast England & Wales Non-conformist Births & Baptisms, transcription states "Description: Angram or Osmotherley (Catholic)": christened on 18 Jan 1774 Thomas Thompson son of James & Mary Tompson (sic).  Sponsors: James Turner, Margaret Turner.

I'm not sure where Angram is, there is one near Harrogate but that's miles from Osmotherley.  Angram Grange seems to be a parish near Thirsk, but again it's 18 miles from Os.  I found this reference to Angram Hall online in a document about St John's Catholic Church, Easingwold:

"Mass was said for a time at Angram Hall, a farmhouse still standing near Husthwaite, ......... Fr Anselm Bradshaw looked after Angram 1770-1734, followed by a priest coming over from Osmotherley."

This might explain the "Angram or Osmotherley" bit above.

[tillypeg]

You mentioned at the start of your thread Robert born c1804, christened Stokesley 11 04 1810 - how sure are you about this date?  Although this baptism shows son of Thomas, farmer, it seems rather a gap between birth & baptism....

There is a baptism at Carlton in Cleveland on 3 May 1808 for Robert, son of Thomas Thompson, farmer.  It is listed as Carlton, Yorkshire (West Riding) 1809 in the Bishop's Transcripts on FindMyPast but looking at the image it is definitely 1808.  Also there is the transcript-only entry on FindMyPast's England Births & Baptisms 1538-1978 - this is from FamilySearch.org and looking at this entry on there, it is definitely Carlton in Cleveland, not West Riding.   I haven't looked at the census entries for your Robert, but would this year 1808 suit his census ages better?

[PaulThommo]

You mentioned at the start of your thread Robert born c1804, christened Stokesley 11 04 1810 - how sure are you about this date?  Although this baptism shows son of Thomas, farmer, it seems rather a gap between birth & baptism....

There is a baptism at Carlton in Cleveland on 3 May 1808 for Robert, son of Thomas Thompson, farmer.  It is listed as Carlton, Yorkshire (West Riding) 1809 in the Bishop's Transcripts on FindMyPast but looking at the image it is definitely 1808.  Also there is the transcript-only entry on FindMyPast's England Births & Baptisms 1538-1978 - this is from FamilySearch.org and looking at this entry on there, it is definitely Carlton in Cleveland, not West Riding.   I haven't looked at the census entries for your Robert, but would this year 1808 suit his census ages better?

Thanks Tillypeg, received your last 2 entries. Searched through an Ordnance Survey map for the Northallerton area at my brothers house just now but unable to find a Angram (hall) around the Osmotherley area, probably long gone, but it does look promising.
Regarding Roberts birth, the 1861 census has him down as Stokesley as birth place and aged 57. Other census have him blank or born in South Shields (Westoe) which is where he settled once married. I am away from home (Australia) so relying on memory although I will look at my records on FindMyPast to see the original copies of the census. When I checked birth records for a RT in Stokesley 1800-1810 the only one that showed up was a RT christened in 1810. I have now just looked at family search and it shows a RT christened in C in C on 3 May 1808 with Thomas as father, that has to be him. It's funny how easy it is to get wrong information.
Many thanks for getting the right RT for me. Paul

[tillypeg]

The only Angram I found was Angram Hall (farm), Husthwaite, southeast of Thirsk, 18 miles from Osmotherley.  It still exists on Google Maps.

If you need a pit-stop whilst on your travels, I can recommend The Rusty Bike café in Swainby (parking outside/roadside) or The Joiner's Shop in Ingleby Cross (very limited parking in village).  Also plenty of cafés/pubs/tearooms in Stokesley.

Good luck finding the headstones!

[PaulThommo]

You mentioned at the start of your thread Robert born c1804, christened Stokesley 11 04 1810 - how sure are you about this date?  Although this baptism shows son of Thomas, farmer, it seems rather a gap between birth & baptism....

There is a baptism at Carlton in Cleveland on 3 May 1808 for Robert, son of Thomas Thompson, farmer.  It is listed as Carlton, Yorkshire (West Riding) 1809 in the Bishop's Transcripts on FindMyPast but looking at the image it is definitely 1808.  Also there is the transcript-only entry on FindMyPast's England Births & Baptisms 1538-1978 - this is from FamilySearch.org and looking at this entry on there, it is definitely Carlton in Cleveland, not West Riding.   I haven't looked at the census entries for your Robert, but would this year 1808 suit his census ages better?

Hi Tillypeg,
Thank you for your recommendations for places to stop and recharge the batteries while pounding the graveyard(s),

I wonder if I could rack your brains as I am scratching mine at the moment. The Robert you mentioned b.1808 in Carlton, looking through the census it seems he married a Jane Sellers in Carlton on 24 Oct 1840 and then all the census has them (and family) at a farm in Ingleby arncliffe (of 120 acres).
The Robert I have was taken originally from the census. I knew he married a Margery Jefferson in Jarrow, Durham in 1824 and the 1841 census is blank for his birthplace, 1851 states Yorkshire, 1861 & 1871 state Stokesley and 1881 states South Shields (well he had been living there for nearly 60 years). On all the census his age is equivalent to having been born in 1804. Checking both FindMyPast and Family Search the only Robert Thompson b. Stokesley between 1803 and 1811 was christened 11 April 1810. As each census he stated his age as to being born in 1804 and even his death certificate when he died in 1883 has him as 79. I made an enquiry on Rootschat quite a while ago regarding length of time from birth to christening and it was quite common to wait years before it happened. Also if he was born in 1810 he couldn't have married in 1824. Robert's father is listed as Thomas, a farmer, and a witness at the wedding was Thomas Thompson. I then got onto a Thomas Thompson who was a farmer in C in C and away I went. I am now thinking that this maybe is the wrong family but I am at a loss as to who the correct family may be. Do you have any thoughts or suggestions? I am still going with this family when I go down there next week as it is a good excuse to wander through the graveyards and it may still be the right family, they all seem to have ended up buried in Osmotherley. Paul

[tillypeg]

I think it's a good idea to have a look at the churchyards whilst you are here in the UK and keep a good record of any Thompson headstones that you find.

I have another spanner to drop in the works!  There is a burial for a Robert Thompson on 19 January 1842 at Carlton in Cleveland aged 35.  The image from the PR states "of Preston in the County of Durham."

Looking at the 1841 census there is a Robert Thompson age 30 M.S. (male servant) with presumably wife Mary 30, children John 8, Ann 7, Jane 6, Robert 4, Mary 2 (all have N. for where born) & William 3 m, has Y for where born.  They are living at Preston Lodge, Preston in the Parish of Stockton on Tees, Durham. 

GRO listing for birth of Mary could be M1839 Stockton & Sedgefield and for William J1841 Stockton & Sedgefield.  Both have mother's maiden name of Wilkinson.

Marriage: At Whorlton on 13 Oct 1832 by Licence: Robert Thompson of Ingleby Greenhow & Mary Wilkinson of this parish.  The Licence details give both ages as 21, but that could mean just that they were both of full age.  Remember that "of" in a marriage entry just means that the person was living in that place at that time.

There's also another baptism in the vicinity - Robert Thompson 31 Aug 1806 at Faceby, son of John Thompson Junior farmer.  (Robert & Mary's first child listed in 1841 above is John)

Faceby, Carlton & Whorlton are all very close.  Ingleby Greenhow is about 6 or 7 miles away with Stokesley about midway.

In your first post you stated that Thomas was your 3 x gt grandfather ........ then his son Robert who married your 3 x gt grandmother Margery Jefferson.  Which is correct?  Is Robert your 3 x gt or 2 x gt?  Perhaps go back to grandparents and great grandparents and take it from there.  I had a Thompson brickwall in my tree for about 10 years but eventually got through to the other side!   Perhaps you need to have another look at "your" Robert when you return home to your notes and go back to what you definitely know, backed up with certificates or parish register entries and then see where there are several Robert Thompsons who could fit the bill.....