Author Topic: Orange and Catholic schools  (Read 336 times)

Offline Huwcyn

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Orange and Catholic schools
« on: Friday 14 December 18 17:05 GMT (UK) »
My grandfather was born in Liverpool to a Welsh family. They were strict nonconformists, and one of the stories that came down was that he and his brother attended a school run/sponsored by the Orange order. Apparently, a rival (Catholic) school was quite close, and they were actively encouraged by their masters to fight with their counterparts. (Victorian character-building, to put it mildly). My grandfather lived in Hall Lane, and then Esher Road. I'd be grateful to know if this story was likely to be true, and if so, would someone know which school he might have gone to.

Thank you/Diolch yn fawr
Owen , Parry , Pritchard, Foulkes  o Llanddeiniolen
Jones, Bellis o Sir Fflint
Williams o Beaumaris
Chambers o Dulyn
Rowlands o Tywyn

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Offline Viktoria

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Re: Orange and Catholic schools
« Reply #1 on: Friday 14 December 18 18:08 GMT (UK) »
I can’t clarify your story,but in Manchester,in the Angel Meadow/Collyhurst area, on Collyhurst Road,there was St Catherine’s Church and School.
It was an Orange Order Church,the church banner had William of Orange on it,not St.Catherine as you would imagine.
Not very far away was St Malachy’s and a little further on St .Patrick’s.
My maternal grandfather was band master of St.Catherine’s Band.
There was intense rivalry,and much bitterness,as the poor Irish fleeing the great famine would work for very low wages at a time when the local residents were withholding their labour in the hope they would improve wages and thus better living conditions.
My grandfather was attacked many times as he negotiated the streets on his way home from practice.
Whitsuntide walks of Witness were very sectarian.
But he could sympathise with the immigrants,as any reasonable person would do.
As for the schools encouraging violence ,I cannot say,but really the poor people of both groups were so poor not much encouragement  would be needed.The pubs were very specific,The Shamrock and The Exile of Erin were frequented by the Irish residents.
Viktoria.
All gone by now , interesting times.

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Offline CaroleW

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Re: Orange and Catholic schools
« Reply #2 on: Friday 14 December 18 18:20 GMT (UK) »
I grew up in Liverpool and am not aware of any schools of that nature nor is my husband.  The schools were C of E (Protestant) and Roman Catholic and children went to one or the other.  I went to a C of E school and at no time were we encouraged to disrespect or inflame another religion.  My husband is RC and the same applied at his schools.

There was a great rivalry between the religions and this was demonstrated on the 12th July when members of the Orange Lodge marched through the streets en route to the station for their annual day out in Southport.   On their return,  there was a lot of name calling between both religions as they marched back from the station to their respective lodge HQ’s plus the occasional skirmish. 

My family were Orange Lodge supporters though not actual members and I well remember “following the lodge” to Southport.  I never witnessed any problems in Southport - only on the march back when both religions would have “imbibed” sufficient drink to fuel their religious differences.

If I am honest - both sides were equally to blame for the inflammatory remarks/songs etc yet after the 12th - those same people would just get on with their lives
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Offline Huwcyn

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Re: Orange and Catholic schools
« Reply #3 on: Friday 14 December 18 19:48 GMT (UK) »
Thank you both. This would have been roughly 1895-1905 -I'd imagine that the first world war would have lessened any presumed antipathy.
Owen , Parry , Pritchard, Foulkes  o Llanddeiniolen
Jones, Bellis o Sir Fflint
Williams o Beaumaris
Chambers o Dulyn
Rowlands o Tywyn

Offline CaroleW

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Re: Orange and Catholic schools
« Reply #4 on: Friday 14 December 18 21:15 GMT (UK) »
Always advisable to include a time frame
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Orange and Catholic schools
« Reply #5 on: Friday 14 December 18 21:51 GMT (UK) »
There are some great photos + info on a website Streets of Liverpool - A Pictorial History of Liverpool.
There should be plenty of information online and in books.
If the schools were connected to churches you can look at lists of churches in Liverpool on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks and GEN UKI websites. The latter site has an accompanying map for each church.
 Look at Liverpool family history and local history websites too.
There are old maps online on various sites.
Some school admission registers and log books are online. Originals may be in local archives - check online catalogue.

There was a lot going on in Ireland late 19th-early 20thC. Irish Land League, Home Rule campaign, death of Parnell, Solemn League and Covenant, founding of Ulster Volunters and Sinn Fein, 1916 Rising, (followed by execution of the leaders, imprisonment/ internment of followers, hunger-strikes), War of Independence, Irish Civil War, partition of Ireland. All this would have heightened sectarian tensions among Irish in Britain. Some politicians encouraged antipathy to further their own ambition. There were also economic and social factors, jobs and wages for instance as mentioned by Viktoria. (Factory owners in Preston brought Irish people from workhouses in Manchester and Belfast as strike-breakers during the Great Preston Lock-out 1853-4.)

Offline Joney

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Re: Orange and Catholic schools
« Reply #6 on: Friday 21 December 18 17:05 GMT (UK) »
Esher Road and Hall Lane are both in the north of the city, in the Kensington and Everton area. My cousin married into an Orange Lodge family and I know they always attended St. George's, Everton which is quite an impressive building, stone on the outside, but with the use of lots of cast-iron within.  It's grade 1 listed. Particular churches and pubs are still associated with the Orange tradition.
Liverpool - Ireland 
 Thornton - Skerries, Traynor - Wicklow,
 McGuirk - Baltray, Co. Louth, Phillips - Mayo
Isle of Man - Harrison, Andreas and Morrison, Maughold,  Durham - Brown and Kennedy,
Northumberland - Clough, Longbenton

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Orange and Catholic schools
« Reply #7 on: Friday 21 December 18 17:18 GMT (UK) »
I'd imagine that the first world war would have lessened any presumed antipathy.

I'd imagine the opposite because of the turbulence in Ireland 1916-1923.