Joseph Allen 1756-1823 Birmingham

[Althea7]

I am trying to find out anything I can about Joseph Allen.  I think, but am not sure, that he was born in 1756 and died in 1823 in Birmingham.  He married Elizabeth Spencer (1777-1851) at St Martin, Birmingham on 17th October 1796. The couple are described as bachelor and spinster.

I think it is the same Joseph Allen who died 8th April 1823 in Birmingham, St Paul.  Lived at Constitution Hill.

He is the father of my ancestor Samuel Allen, born 1799 Birmingham, died 12th October 1873 Birmingham, married Jane Dowler on 27th December 1816 in Harborne St Peter. 

I have a much clearer picture of Samuel Allen and his children, but get completely mixed up with his father Joseph.  Familysearch.org had a lot of children born to a Joseph Allen and wife Elizabeth, some prior to this 1796 marriage, which makes me wonder if Joseph Allen had been married before and had older children.  There is a 1787 marriage to an Elizabeth Williams, which confuses the picture even more, and Familysearch.org has a family tree for that Joseph and Elizabeth Allen that looks very unfamiliar to me, wrong children and wrong birth and death dates...

From the marriage certificate and his son Samuel's records, Joseph Allen was a button maker.  Samuel was a button burnisher (I am not sure what that entailed).

I am wondering if this Joseph and Elizabeth Allen are the parents of the famous engraver James Baylis Allen?  He is recorded as being apprenticed/articled to his older brother Josiah, a Birmingham engraver.  Familysearch.org also gives a Josiah, who is described as an engraver on his marriage certificate to Susanna Avery on 3 Sep 1817 at St Martin, Birmingham.  This Josiah may have been born in 1793 or 1796, but there could be a transcription error and his parents (?) were married in 1796.

Familysearch.org has many, many children born to a Joseph Allen and Elizabeth, some previous to 1796.  I can't seem to find any earlier information about Joseph, such as who his parents and siblings were, but from somewhere I have the names of his parents as John and Jane...

It looks as though there were a lot of Allens in Birmingham at the end of the eighteenth and beginning of the nineteenth centuries, all button makers/manufacturers.

[ColC]

I note the marriage you mention but given your statement:

“I am wondering if this Joseph and Elizabeth Allen are the parents of the famous engraver James Baylis Allen”
 
Have you considered the marriage below?

Joseph Allen       13 Apr 1786   Harborne, St Peter   Elizabeth  Bayless
Both single of the parish witnesses William Allen & John Tallis (He & Joseph Tallis signed others)

The other question is how sure are you of the death of Joseph?


Colin

[Althea7]

I note the marriage you mention but given your statement:

“I am wondering if this Joseph and Elizabeth Allen are the parents of the famous engraver James Baylis Allen”
 
Have you considered the marriage below?

Joseph Allen       13 Apr 1786   Harborne, St Peter   Elizabeth  Bayless
Both single of the parish witnesses William Allen & John Tallis (He & Joseph Tallis signed others)

The other question is how sure are you of the death of Joseph?


Colin

Thanks for that.  So his wife was neither Elizabeth Spencer nor Elizabeth Williams.  Familysearch.org just gives her first name Elizabeth for all these children.

I share DNA with somebody who is a descendant of James Baylis Allen, and it looks as though our connection is through Joseph Allen and his son Samuel Allen.  Very likely James Baylis Allen and Samuel Allen were brothers.  Also it is well documented that James Baylis Allen has an older brother called Josiah, a Birmingham engraver who he was apprenticed to.

I am not sure of the death of Joseph Allen.  The only things I am sure of are his son Samuel Allen and what is on his records, which give his father as Joseph Allen and mother as just Elizabeth.  And his grandson Alfred Allen I have well documented.  On Samuel's records, his father Joseph is described as a button maker, and on Alfred's birth certificate his father Samuel is described as a button burnisher.  In the biography of the famous engraver James Baylis Allen his father is given as Joseph Allen, a button maker, and his mother is Elizabeth.

[ColC]

One family tree indicates that this is James Baylis Allen, parents Joseph & Elizabeth Baylis.
James Allen   Baptism    29 Sep 1803   Birmingham, St Philip   Joseph & Elizabeth

He was likely to be the brother of Samuel,
Samuel Allen   Baptism    17 May 1799   Birmingham, St Philip   Joseph & Elizabeth

However there were a large number of baptisms at St. Philip’s 1786 – 1806, parents Joseph & Elizabeth, some of which overlap dates but as Josiah Allen baptised there 14 Jan 1793 its likely that they were all brothers and had other siblings.

James Allen first married Jane Kennedy   17 Jan 1825   Parish Chapel, St Pancras

After Jane died James Baylis Allen married Mary Jennings a spister 26/06/1845 Old Church,Saint Pancras, London. James was noted as an Artist, both of their fathers were notes as DEAD.
James died on 11 January 1876 at the age of 72.

Colin

[ColC]

I wonder if this is your Joseph Allen?

Marriage - Isaac Allen   7 Nov 1762   Harborne, St Peter   Elizabeth Green

Children:

Joseph Allen   Baptism    7 Mar 1765   Harborne, St Peter   Isaac,Elizabeth

William Allen   Baptism    8 Mar 1767   Harborne, St Peter   Isaac,Betty

Plus Ann 1769, Jemima 1771, Elizabeth 1773, Thomas 1775, Lucy 1777, Mary 1779, Sarah 1782.

Sadly no detail on the following burials but could it be Isaac & Elizabeth?

Isaac Allen   Burial    5 Feb 1789   Harborne, St Peter

Widow Elizabeth Allen   Burial    11 Apr 1796   Birmingham, St Philip

There are quite a few possibilities for Elizabeth with various spellings but not Bayless.
In Birmingham below might be a possibility, I think their eldest daughter was Hannah.
However there are may others in surrounding areas.

Elizabeth Baylis   Baptism    16 Jun 1766   Birmingham, St Philip   Henry & Hannah

Colin

[Althea7]

I wonder if this is your Joseph Allen?

Marriage - Isaac Allen   7 Nov 1762   Harborne, St Peter   Elizabeth Green

Children:

Joseph Allen   Baptism    7 Mar 1765   Harborne, St Peter   Isaac,Elizabeth

William Allen   Baptism    8 Mar 1767   Harborne, St Peter   Isaac,Betty

Plus Ann 1769, Jemima 1771, Elizabeth 1773, Thomas 1775, Lucy 1777, Mary 1779, Sarah 1782.

Sadly no detail on the following burials but could it be Isaac & Elizabeth?

Isaac Allen   Burial    5 Feb 1789   Harborne, St Peter

Widow Elizabeth Allen   Burial    11 Apr 1796   Birmingham, St Philip

There are quite a few possibilities for Elizabeth with various spellings but not Bayless.
In Birmingham below might be a possibility, I think their eldest daughter was Hannah.
However there are may others in surrounding areas.

Elizabeth Baylis   Baptism    16 Jun 1766   Birmingham, St Philip   Henry & Hannah

Colin

That is wonderful information, thanks.  I will comb through it all.

[mbsg]

Thank you for all this info, I'm the connection to James Baylis Allen. Is it possible to tell me where the family tree is that you refer to indicating the surname of Elizabeth being Baylis?

[ColC]

The public tree on A....y named the mother of James Baylis Allen as Elizabeth Bayless.
There are also two private trees noting James Baylis Allen born 1803 and one other tree stating that the mother of James Allen 1803 was Elizabeth Spencer.

Colin

[mbsg]

Thank you very much for the reply. I'll see if I can find it.