NORMAN / BAGSHOT 1780s - twins?

[hanes teulu]

I am looking at the same tree right now! Ann Bagehot's father was Thomas Bagehot, her mother being  Priscilla Ostler. Ann's brother was Robert (Codrington) Bagehot and it was Robert that married Mary Watson, so I am not sure why the Norman family tree says "Rev Watson Bagehot"

I also just found this regarding Thomas (from a document on the history of Langport)

Thomas Bagehot was trained in the nonconformist ministry and is supposed to have established a Socinian chapel in North Street at some date after 1747, attended by many of the borough's leading inhabitants

rand parents

"The character and reward of the faithful servant ....; on occasion of the much lamented death of the Rev. Thomas Watson" by Joshua Toulmin, published 1793

____________________________ DEDICATION
To the Congregation of Protestant Dissenters lately under the pastoral Care of the Reverend Thomas Watson;
To the Rev Thomas Watson, of Chichester, Mrs Mary Bagehot and Mr Jacob Watson his Descendants, and to Mr Mr Robert Bagehot, of Langport, Merchant, his Son in Law

the following Sermon is inscribed, as an unfeigned Token of cordial Sympathy with them, and a merited Tribute of Respect and Affection to his deceased Friend

by Thomas Toumlin, Taunton, March 16 1793

[Andrew Dunn]

Thanks for that info about Rev Thomas Watson, I didn't know who Mary Watson's father was.
It sounds like some confusion in the Norman family tree - merging Thomas Bagehot and the Rev Thomas Watson

[Andrew Dunn]

Aha, "Cousin Katie" and James Dunn the architect?

... That's right 

I've not really found anything related to "Kell", useful to know it is a Yorkshire name
I've been using Bing AI for a lot of queries, it's a quicker way of find things but it threw a sulk when I tried to get it to search "Kill King" ... I'm probably on some terrorist watch list now!

I think the original records that I found on Family Search were created by Chris Codrington, as such the records for Dr John Kell King and Francis King already existed. I don't know if John King had Kell as a middle name but using the "Kell" moniker helps differentiate him from the other John King's in the line. I do have a copy of Dr John's will, that was the evidence that confirms that John's brother was called Francis

Kell remains a mystery name, it could be a maiden name somewhere up the line but at present we have no idea who John and Francis' parents were. I have found explanations for all the other middles names, Bryan, Bathurst, Smith, Stapleford and Rodon.

The Bryan, Rodon and Smith surnames are also prominent amongst the earlier Kings that I found

I've not found any direct (marital) links to the Cargill name, but in John's will he does refer to his very good friend Richard Cargill.

I believe that John King's first wife was Louise Henriette Corre Desgouttes, (the surname usually appears as just Desgouttes, but the full name is "Corre Des Gouttes"), daughter of Louis Corre Desgouttes and Victoire Michelle Aimee De Gournay. Victoire was one of the 10 children of Michel Raphael Issac De Gournay and Perrine Chevolleau. Another daughter, Marguerite Antoinette De Gournay married Louis' brother Charles Desire Corre Desgouttes

I'm not sure what happened to Louise Henriette Desgouttes - She was married to John King by 1822  and he married Anne Catherine Norman in 1836. Being catholic, I don't expect they divorced but I haven't found any death record. Her siblings ended up in New Orleans.

Michel and Perrine De Gournay's son, Pierre Bernard De Gournay is registered as the owner of a Stoney Hill Pen, Saint Andrew from 1821 to 1823. He married Maria Josephe Sophie Raccine.
They had two daughters, Annette Elizabeth Bernadine De Gournay and Eleanor Pauline De Gournay.

Annette De Gournay married Samuel Kell King, son of Dr John King
Her sister, Eleanor De Gournay married King Charles Williams, grandson of Dr John King
King Charles Williams was the son of Charles Williams and Mary King
Samuel Kell King was registered owner of a Stoney Hill in 1826

John King isn't registered for Stoney Hill until 1831, possibly when Louise Henriette Desgouttes died? The family history re the John King inheriting Stoney Hill via his first wife isn't the whole picture!

I thought the following was convincing evidence of the connection between John King and Louise Henriette Desgouttes

Marriage of Louis Marchand and Pauline Chevolleau 12th January 1822
Amongst those also signing there are L. H. King, L. Desgouttes, Victoire Desgouttes and J. P. Desgouttes.

The most likely person for L H King would be Louise Henriette Desgouttes, using her married name at the start of 1822

L Desgouttes would be Louise Desgouttes and Victoire (De Gournay) his wife - parents of Louise H
J P Desgouttes would be Louise's sister, Jeanne Pauline b1805

Marriage of Jeanne Desgouttes and Jean Branday - 3rd May 1828
The additional signatures include L. Desgouttes, Louis Desgouttes and John King

They would be Louis Desgouttes, the father, Louis Honore Desgouttes, the brother and John King, the brother-in-law.
Where was Louise Henriette King - it's her sister's wedding
Louis's wife, Victoire De Gournay died in 1826

 

[Andrew Dunn]

Aha, "Cousin Katie" and James Dunn the architect?

My "signature" should have given that away   

It lists the roots of my paternal grandparents - top half for grandfather, bottom half for grandmother. Left hand male, right hand female

These are the pairings for my paternal grandfather, top line his father, bottom line for his mother
Dunn / Clark m Smith / Guthrie -- Thomson / Scott m Robertson / Baxter
Ballantyne / Watson m Tait / Kyle -- King / Hall m Norman / Browne

So grandfather's parents were Dunn (m) married Ballantyne (F)
The Ballantyne (F) parents would be Ballantyne (M) and King (F)
The King (F) parents would be King (M) and Norman (F)
The King (M) parents would be King (M) and Hall (F)
The Norman (F) parents would be Norman (M) and Browne (F) 

It took me a while to come up with the layout but it seems to work 

[johking]

Fantastic information, thank you so much! It has made my Jamaica info much richer and fuller.

I have always wondered why John King's first child is named Louise Henriette. It seems a bit off to call your first child with another woman after your first wife. But maybe Anne Catherine Norman knew her and liked her and her death was mourned by both of them. Have you any insights there?

The Public Profiler GB Names is here: https://apps.cdrc.ac.uk/gbnames/ - enter the surname KELL. I see they have now gone back to 1851 and Kell is even more concentrated then. It's been a useful tool for me over the years when looking for the first place to search for a family origin. I never got anywhere with Kell though, as the dates are early and I guess you would have to be lucky to hit some church records that fitted. And sadly John and Francis are not exactly rare (unless Kell cropped up as a middle name). Oh for an Ebenezer or the like!

(Just spotted your next post. That is a clever idea)

[johking]

To be clear, my idea was to look for a King male married to a Kell female with children John and Francis. Or looking for Kell as a reference to a grandparent name might be also possible, which would be even more difficult.

There was also the other clue that they were supposed to come from a wealthy or noble family in some way. They tend to have better records so I had some hope there but never unearthed anything.

At least your records give a better idea of birth date than the old family tree, but I suspect it is a forlorn hope.

[hanes teulu]

Presumably you've checked out
http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com/

[Andrew Dunn]

There's nothing worse that trawling lots of records with many mentions of the King and Kingston for someone called King! ... I think that's one reason why I dived into the French people, three families with that ever so rare combination of the letters "GOU" in their surnames

I've seen some references suggesting that John King may have been born in Jamaica, in Manchioneal - that at least appears to be the primary area that they inherited property

Some records link to King christenings in Stretton, Rutland
Ballantyne lore has it that the Kings were of East Riding - between Scarborough and Whitby

[Andrew Dunn]

I wonder whether there are connections with the family of Thomas King ("Slave trader")

Thomas King, 1735–1824, was co-founder of the firm Camden, Calvert and King
His father may be a Newark King and the family is thought to come from East Riding, Yorkshire
His sister Elizabeth King married a Jackson
Thomas King married Sarah Hall b1758 in Bridgetown, Barbados - her father was Harper Hall
One of Thomas and Sarah's children, Thomas Harper King married Elizabeth Catherine Hall
Elizabeth Catherine Hall was possibly born in Essequibo, Guyana


I had found an earlier / parallel set of Kings in Jamaica via the Halls.
Francis King b1772 married Letitia Ann Hall
Letitia's parents were James Hall and Margaret Mercy Rawleigh
Margaret's sister Teresia Ann Hobard Rawleigh married Vice Admiral Robert Jackson
Robert Jackson's brother Samuel Jackson married Elizabeth Sarah King (in 1798)

Elizabeth Sarah King was at least a 3rd generation creole (born in West Indies) based in Clarendon
Her grandfather Andrew King was born there c1683

The family is interesting as there are various surname connections with our Kings
Andrew's daughter Martha married Alexander Gray, their son Alexander Gray could be the father of Francis King's second wife Nancy Gray b1784

Andrew's son Robert King married Mary Rodon 
Of Robert King and Mary Rodon
Rebecca Mary King married Andrew Gray in 1772
James King married Elizabeth Aldred, her mother may be Elizabeth King b c1735 in Lowestoft and m1752 in Haddiscoe, Norfolk

Why did Dr John "Kell" King and Elizabeth Biggs name their daughter Frances Rodon King b1782