Author Topic: another Latin conundrum July 1605  (Read 978 times)

Offline Sunflower16

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another Latin conundrum July 1605
« on: Sunday 20 January 19 21:13 GMT (UK) »
I would be grateful if any Latin specialists can help......

Durand, Rees, Beynon, Hill, Robertson, Oakes, Spry, Stacey, Harrison, Du Plessis, Grobler.

Offline Bookbox

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Re: another Latin conundrum July 1605
« Reply #1 on: Monday 21 January 19 01:08 GMT (UK) »
It’s a Judicial Sentence, recorded in a church court, relating to an annulment of marriage. But the image you’ve posted starts partway through the text, and I’m reluctant to translate it without the earlier section. Have you got that?

Offline Sunflower16

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Re: another Latin conundrum July 1605
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 07:22 GMT (UK) »
Sorry it's taken so long but I did not want to clog up the forum with the full 13 page document and have been trying to resize it,  the document is here :

https://www.dhi.ac.uk/causepapers/causepaper.jsp?cause=CP.H.168A

I have attached the two pages preceding the extract I posted.  It has been a struggle to resize it sufficiently for the forum, I hope it is clear enough. 

It concerns a case brought about by a young man who claimed that Agnes / Ann had contracted to marry him but had married someone else instead, seeking to have her marriage to the other person annulled.  I wondered what the sentence might be.
Durand, Rees, Beynon, Hill, Robertson, Oakes, Spry, Stacey, Harrison, Du Plessis, Grobler.

Online goldie61

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Re: another Latin conundrum July 1605
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 09:18 GMT (UK) »
That screen shot is unreadable really Sunflower.
It blurs into nothingness when you try and zoom in on it.
It is only 152 KB, and you're allowed to post up to 500 kb.
Perhaps try one of those two pages, and make the file size as big as possible.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs


Offline Bookbox

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Re: another Latin conundrum July 1605
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 09:36 GMT (UK) »
As the full set of cause papers is accessible free online, there's no need to post the images here. The whole point of the database for the York Cause Papers has been to abstract the key people and the key data to make the cases accessible to those who don't read Latin. So you have all the essentials, in English, on the link that you posted above in reply #2.

I wondered what the sentence might be.
As it's a civil case, not a criminal one, there is no 'sentence' as such. Charles won the case, and Agnes had to pay the costs of both Charles and Denis.

If I have time later today, I'll post a translation of the first page that you posted, which confirms that outcome.


Offline sarah

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Re: another Latin conundrum July 1605
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 10:05 GMT (UK) »
Hi Sunflower,

You are best to crop out all the blank empty space in your image and then crop your pages into 2 parts, this will help you maximise all the space and make the writing larger in the image.

Regards

Sarah
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Offline Bookbox

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Re: another Latin conundrum July 1605
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 16:51 GMT (UK) »
If I have time later today, I'll post a translation of the first page that you posted, which confirms that outcome.

... we pronounce, decree and declare that the marriage between the said Denis Hayfurth and the aforesaid Agnes that was effectively arranged, contracted and solemnized in the sight of the church was from the beginning, and now is, null and void; and we also pronounce, decree and declare that it did fall short, and now does fall short, of the force of a marriage because of a matrimonial pre-contract that previously existed between the said Charles Middleton and the same Agnes as above; and we decree that the same Denis and Agnes have each gone their own way in this matter in every effect, both in law and in deed, and they should be separated and divorced, and thus we do separate and divorce them; and to the said Denis Hayfurth we do grant and impart permission to marry; and we also charge the said Agnes with the lawful expenses that have arisen and that will arise in this case for and on behalf of both the said Charles Middleton and the same Denis Hayfurth, and (that she) be forced and compelled to the payment of the ecclesiastical expenses of the same, as we do decree by this our definitive sentence, or this our final decree, which we do issue and proclaim in these writings; furthermore, the taxation of these expenses must be reserved, and we do reserve it, to (be paid to) ourselves or to whatsoever other Judge may be empowered in this matter.
Issued 27 July 1605

Offline Sunflower16

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Re: another Latin conundrum July 1605 (SOLVED)
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 17:21 GMT (UK) »
Bookbox, that is really really helpful thank you so much.

The Causes website has some summaries of cases but this portion of this case mentioned the "sentence" as per the consistory court, ie the verdict but did not say what it was.  I just wondered what the sanction was, and you have clearly set it out as written.

Latin as written in 1605 was just a step too far for me this time, hopefully my paleography will improve with practice!!   

Thank you all who advised.   

Durand, Rees, Beynon, Hill, Robertson, Oakes, Spry, Stacey, Harrison, Du Plessis, Grobler.