Author Topic: Possible lead with the Cartwrights  (Read 4335 times)

Offline MacGrigor

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Possible lead with the Cartwrights
« on: Thursday 31 January 19 15:46 GMT (UK) »
Hello,

I have carried on plugging away with William Cartwright (d. 1910, Wigston). He always claimed he was born in Newark in 1866, although he lived in an area of Leicester known as the Newarke in the 1880s. He never married my great-great-grandma Ellen Dobson (first child born in 1890), but it has been speculated that he had a brother, Richard. Both men were chimney sweeps, and Richard continued to live at 27 Gray Street in Leicester following William’s move to Wigston.

A newspaper article from 1892 records William Cartwright of Wigston and Henry Cartwright of Leicester, both chimney sweeps, who had stolen two fowls. Richard did indeed have a son named Henry, whose mother’s maiden name was Griffiths (born in West Bromwich in 1875). Can anyone find a marriage record for a Richard Cartwright and a Jane Griffiths prior to 1875? If a father can be identified for Richard Cartwright, it’s entirely possible that my William might be located too.

However, a daughter, May Phyllis Cartwright, was born in 1893, with her mother’s maiden name stated as Miller. She is on the 1901 Census with Richard and Jane in Leicester. The 1891 Census states that Richard has a cousin named Jane Jackson, aged 10, born in Lincolnshire.

William Cartwright maintained his birthplace as Newark on the 1891 and 1901 Censuses, while Richard Cartwright changes his. He seems to be born around 1854, saying in Manby (?) in Lincolnshire (1911), Sheffield (1881) and Nottingham (1891 and 1901). William can’t be found before the 1891 Census, other than his military records from 1885 and a newspaper article from 1884, both while living at 27 Gray Street in the Newarke in Leicester.

I’d appreciate any help!

Adam 
Lipman family of Aldgate - ends with Lewis Lipman (d. 1871, Bethnal Green), son of John Lipman 'late of Glasgow' (1856)
McGregor family of Fodderty - ends with Alexander McGregor (b. 1765, Fodderty), son of Murdoch McGregor and Kate Stewart

Offline MacGrigor

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Re: Possible lead with the Cartwrights
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 31 January 19 17:04 GMT (UK) »
Another child, Elizabeth, was born in West Bromwich in 1874, mother’s maiden name Griffiths.
Lipman family of Aldgate - ends with Lewis Lipman (d. 1871, Bethnal Green), son of John Lipman 'late of Glasgow' (1856)
McGregor family of Fodderty - ends with Alexander McGregor (b. 1765, Fodderty), son of Murdoch McGregor and Kate Stewart

Offline Milliepede

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Re: Possible lead with the Cartwrights
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 31 January 19 22:39 GMT (UK) »
Quote
Can anyone find a marriage record for a Richard Cartwright and a Jane Griffiths prior to 1875?

Not yet but does the 1911 indicate number of years married.  May not be true but could give a clue.
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Offline MacGrigor

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Re: Possible lead with the Cartwrights
« Reply #3 on: Friday 01 February 19 01:45 GMT (UK) »
1911 Census says 39 years, so c. 1872. This really is a confusing business. Two Cartwrights who are invisible until they are ‘married’ but even then they don’t appear to have actually legally married. The other being my great-great-grandad William Cartwright (d. 1910) who first had a son in 1890; his ‘wife’ Ellen Dobson states in 1911 that they were married for 23 years (c. 1887) - but yet no marriage registration.

Richard and Jane are confirmed to have had 3 children according to census records. Henry in West Bromwich in 1875, and May Phyllis in 1893 (christened at St. Mary de Castro in Leicester). The other child was a daughter, Elizabeth, who appears to have been born in West Bromwich too according to the maiden name of Griffiths, but always insists she was born in Newark in Nottinghamshire as does her mother. She married Adam Cater.

It really is a confusing business, and I can make head nor tail of it. Perhaps both men were adopted and grew up at a home together? Perhaps they were orphaned? So many possibilities. And the mystery of Jane Cartwright’s real surname. And the fact that William Cartwright and his possible sister-in-law (confirmed by Richard in 1911) said they hailed from Newark in Nottinghamshire while both had lived in an area of Leicester called the Newarke! Makes absolutely no sense to me.

Edit: regarding whether Jane was previously surnamed Griffiths or Miller - I recall some kind members on here once solved a similar mystery. One Elizabeth Goddard has been previously married to a man named Harding, and either gave her name as her previous name or as her maiden name of Stockton. The marriage record cleared all this up. Might be a possibility here too.
Lipman family of Aldgate - ends with Lewis Lipman (d. 1871, Bethnal Green), son of John Lipman 'late of Glasgow' (1856)
McGregor family of Fodderty - ends with Alexander McGregor (b. 1765, Fodderty), son of Murdoch McGregor and Kate Stewart


Offline rosie99

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Re: Possible lead with the Cartwrights
« Reply #4 on: Friday 01 February 19 08:58 GMT (UK) »

Richard and Jane are confirmed to have had 3 children according to census records. Henry in West Bromwich in 1875, and May Phyllis in 1893 (christened at St. Mary de Castro in Leicester). The other child was a daughter, Elizabeth, who appears to have been born in West Bromwich too according to the maiden name of Griffiths, but always insists she was born in Newark in Nottinghamshire as does her mother. She married Adam Cater.


Do you have Elizabeths birth certificate to confirm her parents as Richard & Jane

1891
Richard 37 born Nottingham (1901 also has Nottingham)
Jane 35 bn Newark, Notts
Elizabeth 18 bn Newark, Notts
Henry 16 bn West Bromwich
Jane Jackson cousin age 10 bn Gainsborough, Lincs

1881
Richard 26 bn Sheffield
Jane 25 bn Nottingham
Lizzie 8 bn Nottingham
Harry 6 bn West Bromwich

Richard did indeed have a son named Henry, whose mother’s maiden name was Griffiths (born in West Bromwich in 1875).


Do you have this certificate to confirm parents first names
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MacGrigor

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Re: Possible lead with the Cartwrights
« Reply #5 on: Friday 01 February 19 09:30 GMT (UK) »
I don’t have Henry’s certificate, but he’s given the consistent birthplace of West Bromwich and that’s the only birth registered there that year. As for Elizabeth, there was only one birth around 1873 and that was in West Bromwich too. Elizabeth says Newark in 1901 too, when she was Elizabeth Cater (Henry was living with her too).
Lipman family of Aldgate - ends with Lewis Lipman (d. 1871, Bethnal Green), son of John Lipman 'late of Glasgow' (1856)
McGregor family of Fodderty - ends with Alexander McGregor (b. 1765, Fodderty), son of Murdoch McGregor and Kate Stewart

Offline rosie99

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Re: Possible lead with the Cartwrights
« Reply #6 on: Friday 01 February 19 11:47 GMT (UK) »
There are other Cartwright births in West Bromwich with mmn Griffiths

CARTWRIGHT, RICHARD       mmn GRIFFITHS     
1868  Sept Quarter in WEST BROMWICH  Volume 06B  Page 764

CARTWRIGHT, ALBERT       mmn GRIFFITHS     
1872  June Quarter in WEST BROMWICH  Volume 06B  Page 802   

I think you will find that the Elizabeth & Henry with mmn Griffiths are this family and probably not your family

RG11/2856 f51 p14  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27F-DVCJ
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MacGrigor

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Re: Possible lead with the Cartwrights
« Reply #7 on: Friday 01 February 19 11:52 GMT (UK) »
Thanks! So Henry’s birth wasn’t registered. There’s an Elizabeth Cartwright born in Newark in 1874 - mother’s maiden name Hough. So maybe Jane Hough? Why are the Cartwrights such a difficult bunch  >:(

Might just have to buy some certificates at this rate, and I’m not even sure of the exact relationship between Richard and William Cartwright.
Lipman family of Aldgate - ends with Lewis Lipman (d. 1871, Bethnal Green), son of John Lipman 'late of Glasgow' (1856)
McGregor family of Fodderty - ends with Alexander McGregor (b. 1765, Fodderty), son of Murdoch McGregor and Kate Stewart

Offline rosie99

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Re: Possible lead with the Cartwrights
« Reply #8 on: Friday 01 February 19 12:05 GMT (UK) »
Elizabeth may even have been born to Jane before she 'married' Richard so not a Cartwright  :-\
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk