John B WARD master of ship Canada 1810 where born married ,died

[RickyJack]

Had a quick look as your link to NSW  didnt work...but heres something for you....MAYBE you are mistaken...
A William Henry Payton of Hampshire England Not [Bengal Green London] "ours" married Mary Weard
same time in NSW and I reckon the computer matching has copied over Sophie the daughter as thats correct...many things are the same except where his place of origin

V1828801 3B/1828 & V18284297 12/1827 NSW BDM

[majm]

Had a quick look as your link to NSW  didnt work...but heres something for you....MAYBE you are mistaken...
A William Henry Payton of Hampshire England Not [Bengal Green London] "ours" married Mary Weard
same time in NSW and I reckon the computer matching has copied over Sophie the daughter as thats correct...many things are the same except where his place of origin

V1828801 3B/1828 & V18284297 12/1827 NSW BDM

Do you have a copy of either of those TWO Early Church Records?  You see, the transcription I typed up is from the Early Church Record.    May I please assure you that the NSW BDM computer listing that you have quoted is simply the INDEX reference to the actual documents.  You can order the NSW BDM documents direct from them or from any of their official transcription agents.   The WEARD listing is based on the NSW BDM index originally prepared by teams of volunteers back in the 1930s.  WEARD is the word read by the volunteers inspecting the 1828 parish registers for marriages.  They were NOT cross matching against baptisms.   

Please also consider that that 1828 document for the marriage of PAYTON=WEARD does NOT give you identifying information about where William Henry PAYTON was born, so please do consider spending around $20 Australian and get your own copy of the official transcription of that 1828 marriage.   

I wonder if you have considered seeking out the 1826 baptism for that the William Henry McMAHON who died in Forbes NSW October, 1918.  Afterall, you will likely need that to establish who was named on that baptism as his birth mother, and the submitted trees show he was born May 1826 so two years or so before the PAYTON=WEARD marriage occurred.

https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-registry.aspx

https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search?0

https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Documents/early-church-codes.pdf

These links working fine for me this morning.

V1828801 3B/1828 & V18284297 12/1827 NSW BDM
Volume 3B, line 801, of 1828
Volume 12, line 4297, of 1828

I should mention that several of my elderly rellies are avid followers of my RChat posts, and among those rellies are retired NSW BDM senior officers and retired NSW CofE clergy.  They are assuring me that you should seek to obtain fresh official transcripts for that 1828 marriage.   

JM       

[majm]

I am also advised that you should consider obtaining a fresh copy of an official transcription of the marriage registration of annie SOWDO and William Henry MCMAHON/MACMAHON registered in 1862, in the Wentworth BDM district in NSW.  The Reference number is 1319.   It is very likely that there are elusive blanks on the NSW BDM civil registration, so I am not suggesting you seek to obtain the 'real deal' NSW BDM issued certificate, but that once you have the official transcription, you can then go about finding out from the Church register what information the bridegroom provided about himself and his origins, including his own parents.

Here is a link to a thread that I prepared a number of years ago, I am happy to help you strive to sort out any elusive blanks on that 1862 NSW bdm record 1319/1862.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html

You may also find that there are many free to search live links available to help your research:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/   then to
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0  then to

Transcription Agents   I have found each of these organisations to provide an excellent service.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html


JM 

[majm]

I have finally found an online transcription that has the bride’s maiden name indexed as WARD, so perhaps you may consider contacting them and seeking a copy of that page from the register to decide for yourself what surname the bride was known by in 1828 and how she signed the register.    Please do remember to note who gave consent for that 1828 marriage, as the bride was not yet 21, so not yet old enough to give her own consent, and ... Mary PRESTON per the Canada in 1810 was living in the same district as the bride in 1828, so you need to consider why her consent was not given or at least sought, of course if she was not the mother of the bride, then she would not be the person to give such consent. But if she was the mother of the bride, then her consent should have been sought, and if she withheld it, it ought to be noted on that register or within the clergy returns.   

Hawkesbury on the Net Church Registers … so their volunteers have accessed the parish register and are reading the surname as WARD …   Seems to be the 6th entry in one of the parish registers for St James C of E covering the years 1826-1834. .   http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/church/marriages/sjmr1826.html

They are looking for volunteers to help with their ongoing project to transcribe the available church registers in the Hawkesbury Region.    Currently transcribing St James burial/baptism registers… 

http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/ 

http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/familyhistory/

JM

[RickyJack]

OK OK  you have worn me down....I have asked around the Family nobody is interested..however I do think you have raised a very interesting point..as per
I have finally found an online transcription that has the bride’s maiden name indexed as WARD, so perhaps you may consider contacting them and seeking a copy of that page from the register to decide for yourself what surname the bride was known by in 1828 and how she signed the register.    Please do remember to note who gave consent for that 1828 marriage, as the bride was not yet 21, so not yet old enough to give her own consent, and ... Mary PRESTON per the Canada in 1810 was living in the same district as the bride in 1828, so you need to consider why her consent was not given or at least sought, of course if she was not the mother of the bride, then she would not be the person to give such consent. But if she was the mother of the bride, then her consent should have been sought, and if she withheld it, it ought to be noted on that register or within the clergy returns. 
When you say CONTACT THEM...you have sent so many links I not sure anymore which one...so as you say cost around $20..would you kindly give me an address and the correct numbers so I may ask for the information on the certificate for this 1828 wedding between Mary and McMahon Please.
So its down to the flip of a coin...if you are correct it will read Mary and some other surname and If Im correct it will read Ward..which is where I wanted to be in my original post. Wouldnt be at all surprised if when Mary the Mother married Mary Jr went with that surname..
 I havnt forgotten you mentioned Mary was Baptized 1811 with no surname...
cheers Rick
 

[majm]

I have read back through the thread.  I am convinced that your best option is working backwards from the known ancestor of your wife, so I think you need to determine the names of the parents of the bride and groom on the 1862 NSW marriage before you can have confidence in going back any earlier.

I am also advised that you should consider obtaining a fresh copy of an official transcription of the marriage registration of annie SOWDO and William Henry MCMAHON/MACMAHON registered in 1862, in the Wentworth BDM district in NSW.  The Reference number is 1319.   It is very likely that there are elusive blanks on the NSW BDM civil registration, so I am not suggesting you seek to obtain the 'real deal' NSW BDM issued certificate, but that once you have the official transcription, you can then go about finding out from the Church register what information the bridegroom provided about himself and his origins, including his own parents.

Here is a link to a thread that I prepared a number of years ago, I am happy to help you strive to sort out any elusive blanks on that 1862 NSW bdm record 1319/1862.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html

You may also find that there are many free to search live links available to help your research:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/   then to
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0  then to
Transcription Agents   I have found each of these organisations to provide an excellent service.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html

   

Re Your comment : I havnt forgotten you mentioned Mary was Baptized 1811 with no surname...  Baptisms are NOT about giving a person a 'surname'.   I was born 1947, I have older and younger siblings.  All baptised Co E, in regional NSW as babies.   The parish registers do NOT confer us with surnames.  Our births were all registered in NSW.  Our original birth certificates do NOT give us surnames.   NSW BDM civil birth registrations commenced to include surnames in the late 1960s. 

From the Resources Board for NSW that I linked earlier :
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/  click on this link and from there go to the following link
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0 click on that link and from there scroll through to reply 2 : https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.msg2445941#msg2445941   and from there, scroll though until you get to the following:

Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/ 1826 – 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/ 1837 – 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/ 1839 – 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
.... etc
click on the various links as per what ever description suits ... eg baptisms 1826-1837 ...   the headings on the parish register include 'Child's Christian Name' and 'Parents' Surname'  ....   Those images are from the CofE ... Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle NSW, so for the Diocese, not just ceremonies at Hexham.

Civil Registrations
Samples of NSW BDM civil registrations are here at the following live link from NSW BDM 
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/interesting-certificates.aspx - scroll through and get to Henry Lawson.   His birth certificate is typical of civil registrations.  The heading is 'Name and whether present or not'  ... his name is registered as Henry, and it does NOT include a  SURNAME.   

The concept giving a surname to a baby at birth simply did NOT come about in NSW in the 19th Century.  It was not something that caused a bother.  The baby 'became known by' whatever surname their mother was using at the time.   So, if mum was a married woman, she was known in her local community by her husband's surname, and so the child took on the surname of mum and thus everyone presumed her mum's husband was the dad of the child.   In respect of the 1811 entry on that list of illegitimate children who were baptised.  The clergy were NOT concerned as to the status of the baby's parents (married or not).  The baptism ceremony was about the BABY, and not about the parents.   The lists were prepared on a quarterly basis, the clerks went through the parish registers and made the lists out based on summary info and were not concerned with recording how the parents of the babies had arrived in NSW, or if the named father was actually the biological father, or just the current 'beau'.   

If your William Henry McMahon who married in 1862 is the son of William Henry PEYTON/PAYTON who married in 1828 to Mary WEARD/WARD then once you have proven that your next task is to find the link from that Mary to her parents, and that will be a difficult task too, as the NSW records became scant on information.   The online trees that I have examined have 'guessed' there is a papertrail back to the voyage of the Canada in 1810, but none have offered 'proof' .... so I am suggesting you start with the known ie with the 1862 marriage, and you seek out all the elusive blanks on that registration ie both the bride's side and the bridegroom's side. 

JM

[RickyJack]

Hi...you said
  Please do remember to note who gave consent for that 1828 marriage, as the bride was not yet 21, so not yet old enough to give her own consent, and ...
Feed back from a transcriber I contacted about the above sentence..
these early marriages i.e. prior to 1856 very rarely name the person(s) who gave consent to a marriage.  They only state 'WITH CONSENT OF PARENT or PARENTS" or "FRIENDS".

So not much to be gained there...however I did find a source from Familysearch that had already been found..sadly it wouldnt let me copy, but this is what it says
Husband William H Mcmahon or Payton zw31-LPF
Mother Ann Sowden LLMP-V2P
sources and notes
Birth of William H Payton1834-1918
Birth of William H Payton from Sydney BDM 748/1934 v1834748-18 no registration district recorded and Father is Henry Payton and Mother is Mary
as I suspected...a lot of work for not much gain..
cheers Rick

 

[majm]

Rick, 

So you have not sought to obtain the actual image of the parish register for that 1828 marriage that would give you the image of the signatures of the bride and groom and witnesses.   May I assure you that I have quite a collection of CofE marriages from late 1790s through the 1810s and 1820s and the clergy conducting many of those marriages have recorded the information about consent when one of the parties is not yet 21 years of age, and neither party are under a Bond (ie not convicts). 

Re the 1862 marriage, you need to consider obtaining the official transcription as it will give you the details of the denomination and the clergyman's name etc, as I anticipate that that marriage has not been reconciled by NSW BDM, and thus has the elusive blanks on it.   Once you have determined the denomination and the clergyman's name, then it is a matter seeking out that parish register to learn what the bride and the groom provided about their origins, and their parents to that clergyman.   Until you have that information, you really cannot even start to consider if you can join the dots back to the 1828 marriage.

Studying NSW family history, particularly in the penal era is full of traps, and many people 'guess' they are connected just because a surname may 'match' up with someone else's 'guess' work.  I have a long history of studying those eras, and I have a very reliable backup via my living retired rellies, public servants at senior levels in NSW BDM and in AO (ie Archives) and retired CofE clergy.    As in all family history researches, I do urge all family history buffs to seek out ways to get back to the primary sources, rather than spending hours and hours, and days and weeks going through other peoples submitted family trees.   

I see that now you are placing William Henry's dates as 1834-1918, from familysearch, from the submitted genealogies...    and you mention 'Birth' for William H Payton as 1834. Birth of William H Payton from Sydney BDM 748/1934 v1834748-18 no registration district recorded and Father is Henry Payton and Mother is Mary
as I suspected...a lot of work for not much gain..
 
Do you actually have the document?  If not, why not consider purchasing an official transcription of it, the details you have offered perhaps have some errors but I think it is referring to a Church of England baptism (not a birth record, but a baptism record) for 1834 (not 1934) as found at line 748 in volume 18, if so, then that actual record is available from NSW BDM and any of their official transcriptions as a document that family history buffs can rely on.     

I am not aware of any family history researchers that would place equal or greater importance on the submitted trees at any website ahead of the actual primary source material available from independent official sources when researching NSW in the penal or colonial eras.    In fact, I think one of the best aspects of RootsChat is that it places emphasis on finding the independent resources rather than relying on submitted trees, whether on say familysearch or on the commercial websites.   

Of course, it is up to you to decide what you want to put on your own tree, but if, as I had understood, you were seeking DNA matches, you do need to be accurate in your research and you do need to have confidence that the persons you are matching to have been as accurate as you in finding the paper trail in the first instance.     

JM

Hi...you said
  Please do remember to note who gave consent for that 1828 marriage, as the bride was not yet 21, so not yet old enough to give her own consent, and ...
Feed back from a transcriber I contacted about the above sentence..
these early marriages i.e. prior to 1856 very rarely name the person(s) who gave consent to a marriage.  They only state 'WITH CONSENT OF PARENT or PARENTS" or "FRIENDS".

So not much to be gained there...however I did find a source from Familysearch that had already been found..sadly it wouldnt let me copy, but this is what it says
Husband William H Mcmahon or Payton zw31-LPF
Mother Ann Sowden LLMP-V2P
sources and notes
Birth of William H Payton1834-1918
Birth of William H Payton from Sydney BDM 748/1934 v1834748-18 no registration district recorded and Father is Henry Payton and Mother is Mary
as I suspected...a lot of work for not much gain..
cheers Rick

[RickyJack]

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