One man, two birth records

[dtcoulson]

Hi team,

very tentatively this time, I return to the Smith clan in London.
We have discussed this family about three times before and collected a mountain of data,
so please don't get carried away chasing people through the censuses. We already have the data.

This new question is very specific:

How does Henry James Smith happen to have two separate birth records at GRO?


Details as follows:

1854 - Born Henry James Smith in Shoreditch, parents William Smith and Martha May.
1861 - Westminster: "Jas" born Dalston, 1855, with mother Martha born Brimpton 1823.
1863 - Born Henry James Smith in Newington, MMN = May.
1871 - Newington: Henry Smith born Dalston, 1855, with mother Martha born Brimpton 1824.
1881 - Newington: Henry J Smith born London, 1855, with mother Martha born "Brompton" 1824
1891 - Newington: Henry Smith born "Darlston" 1863, with mother Martha born Brimpton 1823.

After that the trail becomes ambiguous.
Several possible deaths for Henry but no obvious census appearances in 1901 or 1911.

Interestingly, the 1854-Henry appears in censuses for 1871 and 1881 but not in 1891,
and for the 1863-Henry the opposite is true. There are no censuses in which both appear.
In all cases, the description for the mother is identical.

Either we are looking at two families with extraordinary similarities or we are looking at one family for which the son's birth year switches from 1854 to 1863, leaving everything else the same. I could easily accept that the stated age for HJS in 1891 was written incorrectly, either by accident or by deception, but then we are faced with a civil birth record matching the erroneous age written in the 1891 census. What does this mean?

In summary:
* Are we looking at two Henry James Smiths or one?
* Are there circumstances whereby a 9-year-old boy could get a brand new birth certificate?
* If the second birth registration is fiction, what would drive a person to do such a thing, and how easily could this be done in the nineteenth century?


-DC

[dtcoulson]

From previous research:

Henry James Smith
born 8 June 1854
baptised in April 1855 at St Leonard, Shoreditch.
Parents: William (gentleman) and Martha. 
Abode: 2 Hamilton Cottages, Dalston.

[majm]

Do you have the actual images for both of those birth certificates ?  - Not just the baptisms, but the civil registrations ... 

JM

[majm]

Previous threads include:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810972.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=775437.0

JM

[dtcoulson]

All my data for this fellow has come via the internet. I don't have actual birth certs for him.

The GRO lists births in 1854 and 1863 (ie, civil regn).

Interestingly, there appears to be a parish record of a birth in 1854 but not one for 1863.
The record can be found online via FamilySearch.
(see preceding post for details).


Is it possible that HJS's mother needed a birth cert for him for some process when he was 9 years old, and that the document's production date got picked up accidentally as his actual birth date?


-DC

[majm]

Hi team,
............
This new question is very specific:

How does Henry James Smith happen to have two separate birth records at GRO?

....

You have asked a very specific question, but you don't actually have the two separate documents from GRO ...

 

All my data for this fellow has come via the internet. I don't have actual birth certs for him.

The GRO lists births in 1854 and 1863 (ie, civil regn).

Interestingly, there appears to be a parish record of a birth in 1854 but not one for 1863.
The record can be found online via FamilySearch.
(see preceding post for details).


Is it possible that HJS's mother needed a birth cert for him for some process when he was 9 years old, and that the document's production date got picked up accidentally as his actual birth date?


-DC

GRO now offers a pdf service - perhaps you need to sight both the GRO documents before continuing to speculate...

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=808425.0 
GRO PDF scheme now a permanent service


JM

[KGarrad]

Almost certainly 2 separate people/families.
Births have (and had) to be registered within 42 days and, although late registrations were possible there would be some sort of note on the certificate.

Wild speculation is not helpful to family history?
You simply MUST obtain documentary evidence.

Henry James Smith is quite a common name!
FreeBMD lists 60 such births in the London area, between 1850 and 1870.

[dtcoulson]

This is more than two sons with the same three-part name.

This is two sons born within the same 3-mile circle to mothers with the same first and second names born the same year (plus or minus one) in the same town. There are no overlapping census records, i.e where both families are present. 

I agree with you that obtaining the two certs is going to advance the matter but it won't settle the matter. If it turns out that the parents' names are different despite what the censuses show, then I have to consider how it could be that the 1891 census is throwing up a different name for the mother to what is on the birth certificate. And if it turns out that the parents' names are the same in every respect then I have to consider why one family only appeared in 1891 and not in earlier censuses, and why the other family conveniently disappeared in the same year.


On the matter of speculation, there is no harm in that! I'm asking if people have seen things like this before, i.e. whether people have ever seen GRO records that are wrong, or whether GRO has ever recorded multiple birth dates for the same person. It's just learning from others by comparing experience, and there's nothing wrong in that.

I've had a good run with Rootschat over the years and have benefited mightily from the advice of its members. Sounds like it might be time for me to move on, though. I didn't come here for an argument over research strategy.  I actually thought you might find the question intriguing because it is so unusual.

I'll leave the page open for a day if anyone feels they have anything to add.

-DC

[KGarrad]

On the matter of speculation, there is no harm in that! I'm asking if people have seen things like this before, i.e. whether people have ever seen GRO records that are wrong, or whether GRO has ever recorded multiple birth dates for the same person. It's just learning from others by comparing experience, and there's nothing wrong in that.

To answer your questions: No and No!
No, I have never seen GRO records that are wrong, and I have never known the GRO to record multiple registrations for one person.

Although, after the Legitimacy Act 1926, it became possible to re-register a birth under the father's name once the parents had married.
No such facility existed before 1926, however.