Kings Liverpool Regiment 1/8th Battalion

[Rachel Sarah]

Hi,

I’m currently researching my great grandfather who was called a John Lawrence Kelly, he was a private in the Kings Liverpool Regiment (1325/305073) I was kindly told that he first went over to France with the 1/8th battalion on 03/05/1915 where they landed in Boulonge, I believe he was reported wounded shortly after arriving & he stayed in France until May 1916. John went back to France again in June 1916 where he was wounded again but no return date was given on his records. I’ve been over to the Liverpool Museum and used the Deveraux Database and found that he also served under the 19th and 2/7th battalions, which I wasn’t aware of as I couldn’t see it on his service records?

I’ve downloaded the 1/8th battalion War diary from the National Archives however I am really struggling to understand it.

I’m wondering if anyone would be so kind to tell me what the 8th battalion did in France while John was with them? And if anyone knows the dates that John served with the 19th and 2/7th and their movements too if possible please?

Any help any one could provide would be greatly appreciated. 

Kind Regards

[jim1]

Hello Rachel & welcome
You've come to the right place.
I'll take a look & report back unless someone else does first.
Reporting back.
The info you have is correct in that order.Just looking at his record.
OK first of all your man was a pre war Territorial & embodied at the outbreak of war & went overseas with them on the date you have.
2 things happened with the TF, one was the change in the law (1916) which allowed the Army to retain men like him after they were "time served" (TF did 4 years service + 1 in Reserve).
This is why it looks like he's joining up again in 1916.
The second is that in 1917 they were re-organised & given 6 digit numbers that's the reason for the 2.
He was still with the 8th. on the 13th. Nov. 1916 when he was made to re-join but was re-classified at fitness level B (Garrison duties). So at this point he was no longer fit for front line service.
Also at this time he was back in the UK so one would have to assume from that this was his first wound & he had beeen repatriated & at this time was re-classified & posted to another Batt.
He remained in the UK untill 21/6/17. Which Batt. he went to is not clear.
I would concentrate on 3/5/15-13/11/16 with the 8th.
I'll take a look at their diary.
This is what the LLT says about the 3 Batts:
1/8th (Irish) Battalion
August 1914 : in Shaw St, Liverpool. Part of Liverpool Brigade, West Lancashire Division.
February 1915 : transferred to North Lancashire Brigade.
18 April 1915 : transferred with Brigade to Highland Division; brigade retitled as 3rd Highland Brigade.
3 May 1915 : landed at Boulogne.
12 May 1915 : new titles adopted: 154th Brigade, 51st (Highland) Division.
17 January 1916 : transferred to 165th Brigade, 55th (West Lancashire) Division.
31 January 1918 : transferred to 171st Brigade, 57th (2nd West Lancashire) Division and absorbed the 2/8th Battalion. Resumed using title of 8th (Irish) Battalion.

19th (Service) Battalion (3rd City)
Formed in Liverpool on 29 August 1914 by Lord Derby, in the old watch factory at Prescot.
30 April 1915 : came under orders of 89th Brigade, 30th Division.
Landed at Boulogne in November 1915.
14 May 1918 : reduced to cadre strength.
19 June 1918 : attached to 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division and absorbed by 14th Battalion.

2/7th Battalion
Formed in Bootle in October 1914 as a Second Line battalion.
8 February 1915 : came under orders of 171st Brigade, 57th (2nd West Lancashire) Division.
February 1917 : landed in France.

[Rachel Sarah]

Hello Rachel & welcome
You've come to the right place.
I'll take a look & report back unless someone else does first.

That would be really appreciated, thanks so much Jim1 

[MaxD]

His record that I understand you have seen is him being called up in 1916.

He had already served since 23 Nov 1911 when he had signed up in the Territorial 1/8 KLR.  Obviously when they went overseas in 1915, he went with them.  He served 1 year and 17 Days (after March 1915) in France (that brings us to May 1916 as you have it) and then went back to England because the term he had signed for in 1911 had run out.

He was then almost immediately, Jun 1916, called up because he was still subject to the Military Service Act (conscription).  He then went back to France in November 1916 and was released from the army in April 1919.

Unfortunately, the record of his service from 1916 does not show when he served with 19 Battalion or 2/7th or when he actually returned from France.

The three battalions were in these divisions:

1/8th - 154 Brigade 51 Highland Division until Jan 1916 then 165 Brigade in 55 (West Lancashire) Division - he was home in May 1916 so further changes can be discounted.

19  - 21 Brigade 30 Division

2/7th - 171 Brigade in 57 Division.

There will be war diaries for each but we don't really know which diary is relevant to which period of time.  Best perhaps to take 1/8th from May 1915 to May 1916. 

Happy to make a resume of the war diary but it won't be immediate?

MaxD

PS jim1 - let me know if you are doing this, don't want to duplicate!

[jim1]

There's always room for one more Max.
Have added to my first post.

[jim1]

Looking at the 19th. diary they had an intake of 146 7 men on the 29/June/1917 so looks promising your man was one of those.

[Rachel Sarah]

His record that I understand you have seen is him being called up in 1916.

He had already served since 23 Nov 1911 when he had signed up in the Territorial 1/8 KLR.  Obviously when they went overseas in 1915, he went with them.  He served 1 year and 17 Days (after March 1915) in France (that brings us to May 1916 as you have it) and then went back to England because the term he had signed for in 1911 had run out.

He was then almost immediately, Jun 1916, called up because he was still subject to the Military Service Act (conscription).  He then went back to France in November 1916 and was released from the army in April 1919.

Unfortunately, the record of his service from 1916 does not show when he served with 19 Battalion or 2/7th or when he actually returned from France.

The three battalions were in these divisions:

1/8th - 154 Brigade 51 Highland Division until Jan 1916 then 165 Brigade in 55 (West Lancashire) Division - he was home in May 1916 so further changes can be discounted.

19  - 21 Brigade 30 Division

2/7th - 171 Brigade in 57 Division.

There will be war diaries for each but we don't really know which diary is relevant to which period of time.  Best perhaps to take 1/8th from May 1915 to May 1916. 

Happy to make a resume of the war diary but it won't be immediate?

MaxD

PS jim1 - let me know if you are doing this, don't want to duplicate!

Hi MaxD,

Thank you so much for the above information and if it would be possible for you to do a resume of the War diary that would be fantastic? I’m struggling to see what the battalion was doing over in France while John was serving in the 1/8th, as I did download the War diary from the National Archives from May 1915 to May 1916 but struggled to understand it, so that would be really appreciated as and when you could do it.   

Kind Regards
Rachel

[MaxD]

Your input dovetails nicely Jim, I agree with concentration on 1/8th which will give a flavour of service with the others anyway.  I'll crack on with the 1/8th diary.

MaxD

[Rachel Sarah]

Hello Rachel & welcome
You've come to the right place.
I'll take a look & report back unless someone else does first.
Reporting back.
The info you have is correct in that order.Just looking at his record.
OK first of all your man was a pre war Territorial & embodied at the outbreak of war & went overseas with them on the date you have.
2 things happened with the TF, one was the change in the law (1916) which allowed the Army to retain men like him after they were "time served" (TF did 4 years service + 1 in Reserve).
This is why it looks like he's joining up again in 1916.
The second is that in 1917 they were re-organised & given 6 digit numbers that's the reason for the 2.
He was still with the 8th. on the 13th. Nov. 1916 when he was made to re-join but was re-classified at fitness level B (Garrison duties). So at this point he was no longer fit for front line service.
Also at this time he was back in the UK so one would have to assume from that this was his first wound & he had beeen repatriated & at this time was re-classified & posted to another Batt.
He remained in the UK untill 21/6/17. Which Batt. he went to is not clear.
I would concentrate on 3/5/15-13/11/16 with the 8th.
I'll take a look at their diary.
This is what the LLT says about the 3 Batts:
1/8th (Irish) Battalion
August 1914 : in Shaw St, Liverpool. Part of Liverpool Brigade, West Lancashire Division.
February 1915 : transferred to North Lancashire Brigade.
18 April 1915 : transferred with Brigade to Highland Division; brigade retitled as 3rd Highland Brigade.
3 May 1915 : landed at Boulogne.
12 May 1915 : new titles adopted: 154th Brigade, 51st (Highland) Division.
17 January 1916 : transferred to 165th Brigade, 55th (West Lancashire) Division.
31 January 1918 : transferred to 171st Brigade, 57th (2nd West Lancashire) Division and absorbed the 2/8th Battalion. Resumed using title of 8th (Irish) Battalion.

19th (Service) Battalion (3rd City)
Formed in Liverpool on 29 August 1914 by Lord Derby, in the old watch factory at Prescot.
30 April 1915 : came under orders of 89th Brigade, 30th Division.
Landed at Boulogne in November 1915.
14 May 1918 : reduced to cadre strength.
19 June 1918 : attached to 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division and absorbed by 14th Battalion.

2/7th Battalion
Formed in Bootle in October 1914 as a Second Line battalion.
8 February 1915 : came under orders of 171st Brigade, 57th (2nd West Lancashire) Division.
February 1917 : landed in France.

Hi Jim1,

Thank you so much the above information. Wow I didn’t realise that his fitness had been downgraded to a B class, like you said this may have been due to him being wounded, does it give any information on what his wounds might have been at all? It make sense that John may have been part of the intake of 146 men into the 19th battalion, given the timeline, was this in the UK when he was moved into the 19th? Assume he never went back to France again, prior to at least 13/11/16 as he was downgraded? There is so much for me to get my teeth into here and also get my head around as you have both provided so much, so thank you. Apologies I’ve also asked MaxD to look at the War Diaries too, but if you wish to that would be great, but wouldn’t want to duplicate work and take up your time?

Kind Regards
Rachel