Author Topic: Mary Jane Lindsay from Holywood?  (Read 2446 times)

Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Mary Jane Lindsay from Holywood?
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 03 November 19 09:36 GMT (UK) »
I noticed looking up indexs for you, some had either Cuthbert or Culbert others both. The Oxford Names Companion has a longer entry than usual because of its many spelling variations all stemming from its spelling in the middle ages as Culbert. the name parts were famous and bright. it centered around north England and the lowlands of Scotland. where variations included Cudbird and Cutbirth [ I found neither in 1901 Ireland census] and many more.

in the 1901 census, on the same page as the residents of a house is ‘Household return’ so I found William Cuthbert of nearby Bangor to be 60 and unable to read, his sons Wm 34 and james 25 both read and write. this family might join up with yours of Rockport Holywood

I had wondered if your connection at Rockport was one of the gardener labourers.

the 1901 census proves many people either didn’t know their age exactly because they were number iliterate, or deliberately exaggerated one way or other. 

When it comes to spelling again the same thing but more apparently the sound is all important. I had a lisp when young, I also have dyslexia. So does the name have a dialect word pronunciation for that individuals area or hearing problem for the enumerator, or a speech impediment  eg th in Cuthbert might be cufbert/cuvbert. none found, to my ear it could be even Corbet

on GenesReunited website there are a few Culbert/Cuthbert co down entries eg the oldest entries include
Sairh (Sarah)   Cuthbert   1832   County Down Ireland ...   treeholder   Victoria
Jacob   Cuthbert      1821   Ireland - Down, Conn...   treeholder   Sandra
for Culbert
William   Culbert   1845   Co. Down, N. Ireland...   treeholder   Brenda
Jane   Culbertson      1776   County Down, Ireland...   treeholder   Bonnie

there are more records for county antrim, Derry and Donegal etc
 re Mary Jane
Mary Jane   Lindsay   1868   Dunmurry, County Ant...   treeholder   Martin   
Mary Jane   Lindsay   1867   ...   treeholder   Heather   
Mary Jane   Lindsay   1852   Wisconsin, USA ...   treeholder   Margot   
Mary Jane   Lindsay   1803   ...   treeholder   Robyn

Don’t be put off but don’t discard wrong date or spelling differences  keep for later its all part of becoming expert on your name

good luck
Gracey Gracie Gracy Grassy Greacy
worldwide

Offline MsFoster

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Re: Mary Jane Lindsay from Holywood?
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 03 November 19 18:09 GMT (UK) »
Thank you so much once again. You’re so kind, and your information and advice helps me a lot.

I knew Cuthbert could be confused with Culbert and Culvert, and I wasn’t aware of the other variants, so thanks for that.

In regard to the age, it seems to be a common thing in my family to lie about your age, or as you said, not know your age haha. I’ve even had a few lie in order to join the army, but they got discharged once they were found out!

It’s the age thing that is making the Cuthbert/Lindsay information so difficult.

I have a few grave details that I know to be true, and have researched the people buried along side them. This lead me to Mary Ann Lindsay who married James Culbert (I say Cuthbert I actually knew the relatives that were called by the name)

This eventually lead me to Connswater Street in Belfast, where they all seem to have (some quite tragically) ended up.

Mary Jane Cuthbert/Lindsay’s burial details state that she was 44 years old when she died in 1904. It also states that she was 41 in the 1901 census. I suspect this to be untrue, as what documents I believe to be true state she married in 1867, and had her first child Caroline Cuthbert in 1868. So that would make her birth around (at the latest) 1850, making her 10 years older.

By going through the list of her documented children, her last child was Maria Cuthbert born in 1885. That would make her (by my estimate of her date of birth) 35 years old. This (in my opinion) is a typical age to stop having children.

If I believe her account of her age, she had her first child Caroline Cuthbert when she was 8 years old, and she stopped having children when she was 25.

In conclusion, I think she was born in 1850, and she thought she was born (or lied) in 1860.  We are known for being young looking (they call us baby faced) in our family, so I could well believe she was able to get away with that!

I really want to find her birth certificate, as that would answer a few questions. I have not started to research the parents of James Cuthbert and Mary Jane Lindsay yet. Maybe once I start looking for them I will discover where to start looking for her birth certificate.

Oh what a lark this genealogy malarkey has become haha. I started this journey 6 weeks ago, and thanks to kind people like yourself, I’m learning something new and fascinating every day.

Thank you so much once again for you time, and efforts.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Mary Jane Lindsay from Holywood?
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 03 November 19 20:33 GMT (UK) »
Quote
I really want to find her birth certificate, as that would answer a few questions.
Civil registration of births started in 1864 so there ill be no birth certificate.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline MsFoster

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Re: Mary Jane Lindsay from Holywood?
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 03 November 19 20:45 GMT (UK) »
Quote
I really want to find her birth certificate, as that would answer a few questions.
Civil registration of births started in 1864 so there ill be no birth certificate.

Sorry, I should have said baptism, a recorded entry in a church. That is of course if she has one. I've been lucky with other people in my tree, in that I have been able to find out the church they attended, and in turn found their baptism record.

Maybe once I start researching their parents I'll find out what church they attended when Mary Jane was born, and hopefully she was baptised.





Offline aghadowey

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Re: Mary Jane Lindsay from Holywood?
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 03 November 19 21:13 GMT (UK) »
A few thoughts-
Remember that the residence was where the bride and groom lived and may not be the place they were born or where their families lived. According to marriage father Patrick Lindsay was a gardener and one of the witnesses Elizabeth Lindsay and the other Alexander Robb.
In 1869 an Elizabeth Lindsay, father Patrick a gardener, married Alexander Robb-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1869/11417/8193633.pdf

This might be another sister- Margaret Lindsay, father Patrick, born c1852-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1870/11381/8178642.pdf

Robert Lindsay, gardener, son of Patrick, married 1873-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1873/11276/8136252.pdf

1880 Patrick Lindsay, Hill St., Holywood-
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/PT_EGHK1880.htm

1877 directory- http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/PT_EGHK1877.htm
Lindsay, David, labourer, Hill Street
Lindsay, Patrick, labourer, Hill Street

Belfast Telegraph, 3 Nov.1883: Hill Street, Holywood, ... cowhouse and garden, at present ... Mr. Patrick Lindsay. Apply any … six o’clock' excepted), to ... Church view, Holywood.

David Lindsay, Church View, Holywood, age 58 died 1879-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1879/06509/4874651.pdf
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Mary Jane Lindsay from Holywood?
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 03 November 19 22:11 GMT (UK) »
The answer to your family tree is CHICAGO!
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline MsFoster

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Re: Mary Jane Lindsay from Holywood?
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 03 November 19 22:25 GMT (UK) »
Wow Aghadowey, that is all amazing, thank you so much!

I thought maybe the witness was her Sister or her Mother, and you have answered that, thank you.

All of those records look very promising, and thank you for the residence on the marriage details advice. I shall in future take that information with a pinch of salt.

Saying that a few of Mary Jane and James Cuthbert's children have 'Hill Street, Holywood' on their birth details and your Lennon Wylie link for Patrick Lindsay is Hill Street, Holywood. A great positive result.

I'm excited to look further into the information you have given me. Again, I can't thank you and BallyaltikillganG enough for your findings and advice.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Mary Jane Lindsay from Holywood?
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 03 November 19 22:27 GMT (UK) »
Following the above marriage for possible siblings of Mary Jane Lindsay leads us to Chicago!

Before that is Scotland- could be other children but worth checking Scottish records for more details-
Elizabeth Lindsay m.(1869) Alexander Robb
1.   Margaret Robb (8 Apr.1870)
2.   William Robb (7 Dec.1872)
3.   James Porter Robb (23 Apr.1874 Hutchesontown, Glasgow) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQVJ-K8S

Margaret Lindsay (c1852-1916 Chicago) m.(1870) James Porter (c1846), stonemason
Note: witness at wedding was a Robert Lindsay.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N34D-N2T Margaret Lindsay Porter (c1852-1916 Illinois), father Campbell Lindsay, mother unknown
1.   Amelia Porter (27 Feb.1871)
2.   Eliza Jane Porter (27 Sept.1873)
3.   Bessie Janet Porter (1875 Holywood-1954 Chicago) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2M4-4GJ4
4.   James Porter (8 Apr.1879)
5.   Margaret Porter (1882 Chicago) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NQYW-56L
6.   Isabel Mary Porter (1884 Chicago-1968)
birth: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NQ5R-GMH
death: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QL33-KHP2
7.   Walter John Porter (1889 Chicago-1911) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7ZY-6BJ

Remember in 1877 directory there was a David Lindsay, Hill St., Holywood? His death in 1879 listed widow and this seems to be his marriage (1848)- father Campbell Lindsay!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG6M-YM5

Thomas Lindsay, son of Campbell, married 1861 Eliza Anne Galloway (sister of David's wife Leanne Galway?- both father's called Hugh). Galway and Galloway variants of same name.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGFK-8RZ
Thomas m. 1850 Jane Cooley-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG6H-Y9G
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Mary Jane Lindsay from Holywood?
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 03 November 19 22:35 GMT (UK) »
From Ros Davies fantastic website-
Thomas LINDSAY of Holywood; a carter; husband of Elizabeth Ann Galway; father of Letitia bpt. 1863 & Thomas bpt. 1864 & Hugh bpt. 1867 & James b. 25 Jul . 1869 (rgt. Castlereagh) & Elizabeth Ann bpt. 1871 at 1st Holywood Presbyterian Church

Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!