Lost Scotsman and Bank loans

[Fraser178]

Hey everyone,

I recently discovered the will/dative of my relative Roderick Fraser who died in Stirling in 1792. He left behind the grand old sum of £3 to his 2 year old son, Alexander and his wife Margaret Haggart.
This however was took by the Bank of Stirling as Roderick owed them £50 to which he was loaned the year before (4.7.1791).

Now my first question, can anybody find a corresponding burial for him? I have been unable to find anything thus far. Maybe he wasn't actually buried in Stirling? the name Roderick also seems a nightmare for transcribers.

Second question, Roderick was simply listed as a Labourer. Now £50 is roughly equivalent to a years wages for a skilled labourer. Could anyone have got a loan in those days or would he have had to have had some form of collateral or insurance?

I'm unsure of his age at death, you will probably stumble across my ancestry family tree where I have put his birth as sometime in the 1760s but this is a guess and not confirmed from any burials.

Any input is appreciated!

[Skoosh]

@ Fraser, assuming he was possibly engaged in the droving of cattle from the Highlands to Falkirk hence a debt to the bank. Roderick is popular Muir of Ord/Beauly area.

Skoosh.

[Fraser178]

@ Fraser, assuming he was possibly engaged in the droving of cattle from the Highlands to Falkirk hence a debt to the bank. Roderick is popular Muir of Ord/Beauly area.

Skoosh.

Interesting, Fraser is also a common surname near Beauly I believe.
I should also mention he was married in Kincardine by Doune, Perthshire (his Wife's parish I believe) and the marriage is also in the parish books of St Ninians, Stirling so he may have been in residence there?
His son was born in Stirling in 1791, of course this doesn't rule out the Cattle Droving he may have just relocated.

[ColC]

No death record for Roderick even though there are records on SP for Stirling 1727-1854

I note the two marriage records you mention to MARGARET HALKET and the birth of their son ALEXANDER, mother HAGART.

There are three possible birth/baptism records on SP, the last one looks promising?
FRASER   RODERICK   DONALD FRASER/JANNET FRASER    09/05/1755   Kilmuir Easter
FRASER   RODERICK   CHARLES FRASER OR UIRACH JANET MC KENZIE   09/04/1769 Killearnan
FRASER   RODERICK   ALEXANDER FRASER/ANNE DAWSON   07/01/1765   Inverness

Colin

[ColC]

Another possible Roderick.
FRASER   RODRICK   ALEXR. FRASER/ANN CHISHOLM   09/05/1763   Inverness

Colin

[Fraser178]

No death record for Roderick even though there are records on SP for Stirling 1727-1854

I note the two marriage records you mention to MARGARET HALKET and the birth of their son ALEXANDER, mother HAGART.

There are three possible birth/baptism records on SP, the last one looks promising?
FRASER   RODERICK   DONALD FRASER/JANNET FRASER    09/05/1755   Kilmuir Easter
FRASER   RODERICK   CHARLES FRASER OR UIRACH JANET MC KENZIE   09/04/1769 Killearnan
FRASER   RODERICK   ALEXANDER FRASER/ANNE DAWSON   07/01/1765   Inverness

Colin

I think you're correct with either one with Alexander as the father as it's the only name connection to go from (off the sons name).
I have had a Y-DNA match with a Fraser who claims to be from the Lovat Fraser branch so for it to be up near Inverness would make sense.

[Forfarian]

I recently discovered the will/dative of my relative Roderick Fraser who died in Stirling in 1792. He left behind the grand old sum of £3 to his 2 year old son, Alexander and his wife Margaret Haggart.

If it was a testament dative, it specifically means that he did not make a will. If he left a will, it is a testament testamentar. Testaments dative are always a disappointment because the only name you get, other than the deceased's, is that of the person to whom confirmation was granted. What does Roderick's testament say about that? Was confirmation granted to the bank, for instance?

Second question, Roderick was simply listed as a Labourer. Now £50 is roughly equivalent to a years wages for a skilled labourer.

According to the article on Stirling in the Statistical Account of Scotland, written in 1793 https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/home , the  wages of a labourer were 1s to 1s 2d a day, and a manservant £4 to £5 a year (plus his keep, of course). Allowing for Sundays and an occasional day off, a labourer would work over 300 days a year. At 1s to 1s 2d per day that would add up to between £15 and £17.50 per annum, so a loan of £50 would be about three times a labourer's annual earnings. I can't imagine a bank ever lending three times the borrower's income without some sort of security.

I should also mention he was married in Kincardine by Doune, Perthshire (his Wife's parish I believe) and the marriage is also in the parish books of St Ninians, Stirling so he may have been in residence there?

That is certainly the obvious inference. You need to look at the originals of both records to see what they say.

[Fraser178]

Thanks for the informative response with regards to the nature of datives. The will itself lists Alexander the defunct son as decerned executor but the defunct wife Margaret Haggart being given adminstrative rights (I mean Alexander was only one year old after all).

It's not the easiest to read then but it basically says she purposefully gives the money to the Bank of Stirling for Rodericks debt and then provides some small details such as the date of the loan and the name of the cashier who provided it.

As for the original records, Alexanders baptism simply provides parent names and baptism date (April 10th 1791) which is around 2 months before Roderick secured the loan (15th June 1791 as per the testament dative).

As for the parish registers for the marriage; Kincardine by doune we get 'Roderick Fraser ?? ?? to Margaret Halket of this parish' I'm pretty sure it says 'St.Ninians' after Roderick but its too difficult to make out.

In St.Ninians we get 'Roderick Frazer St.Ninians to Margaret Halket Kincardine by Doune, married at Kincardine'

So we get no inference that Roderick is actually from St.Ninians just that he is resident there at time of marriage.

[Forfarian]

Thanks for the informative response with regards to the nature of datives. The will itself lists Alexander the defunct son as decerned executor

That's extraordinary - the whole point of being an executor is that you are actually capable of acting as one.

As for the parish registers for the marriage; Kincardine by doune we get 'Roderick Fraser ?? ?? to Margaret Halket of this parish' I'm pretty sure it says 'St.Ninians' after Roderick but its too difficult to make out.
In St.Ninians we get 'Roderick Frazer St.Ninians to Margaret Halket Kincardine by Doune, married at Kincardine'
So we get no inference that Roderick is actually from St.Ninians just that he is resident there at time of marriage.

Yes, that's right. But it's not very enlightening, really.