Correction on 1939 Register - Florence E Williams/Humphrey/Buchan

[Talacharn]

Two marriage certificates arrived today.
Marriage Certificate: Florence Williams and David W Humphreys
17 Jul 1929 . Register Office . Carmarthen
Her address and father’s name (deceased) confirm it is the right person.
Following this marriage, for Florence (E) Williams to marry James K Buchan in Jan-Mar 1941, there would need to be a death, divorce or annulment.

I cannot find a death registered and looked through the war memorials for Carmarthen.
At present, I do not know if this is linked: Jan-Mar 1941 . David W Humphreys married Mary A Wilson

Is it possible to find a divorce or annulment?

The probate for her mother Martha Jane Evans (formerly Williams) of 18 Blue-street Carmarthen, died 24th November 1940. Probate Oxford 18 October to Florence Edith Buchan single woman.

In the second marriage certificate:
7 Jul 1945 . Christ Church . St. David’s . Carmarthen
Kenneth Alan Dunbar and Agnes Maria Williams
The witnesses were Mr J K Buchan . A B Dunbar

I have sent for a birth certificate mentioned in my last post, the only record that fits.
That should answer a few more questions.

[Milliepede]

Marriage Certificate: Florence Williams and David W Humphreys

How old was David and what was his occupation?   

[Talacharn]

Their marriage: 17 Jul 1929 . Register Office . Carmarthen
David William Humphreys . 21 . Batchelor . Fish Hawker . Florence (E) Williams . 20 . Spinster . Fish Hawker
She married James Kennedy Buchan . Jan-Mar 1941

This might be relevant: Jan-Mar 1941 . David W Humphreys m. Mary A Wilson . Carmarthen.

The probate for her mother Martha Jane Evans (formerly Williams) of 18 Blue-street Carmarthen, died 24th November 1940. Probate Oxford 18 October to Florence Edith Buchan single woman. By then, officially she was not a Buchan.

A reply earlier, asked if I knew who the officially closed records related to in the 1939 Register. At the time I did not, but searching, and a few certificates, I have candidates for most of the five entries.

Florence had a sister Violet May Williams, who died before the register. But I now have a marriage for her, which also needs a death or divorce before she married Albert Finch in 1930.

In a previous post, I questioned if Agnes M Williams . b. 1926 (as it appears on the 1939 Register), could have been born Agnes M Davies. The birth certificate says Violet M Davies formerly Williams. He was a Fisherman (Deep Sea). Then I found a marriage on FreeBMD: Apr-Jun 1925 . Arthur H Davies . Violet M Williams . Newport . Volume 11a . Page 597.

There was also a Florence Edith Williams . mmn Williams. That certificate I bought: Florence Edith . 6 Jul 1928 . Carmarthen . Mother: Violet May Williams . Father: / (not Davies).

There are also two Finch children, registered in Carmarthen that fit the dates, as she died in 1931. Then there are no Finch with mmn Williams in Carmarthen. She died and is buried in Carmarthen. At present I have not bought either birth certificate. If all these children are right, I have more names than the number of closed records.

[Guy Etchells]

The 2nd surname is in brackets, and indicates that Florence later changed her surname.
There should be a date there?

The Register was kept updated until the 1990s, so it could have been any time from 1939 until 1990

However things are a little confused?
You said:

On the 1939 Register . 18 Blue Street, Carmarthen, Carmarthenshire
RG101 / 7203F / 013 / 9 . Letter Code XDCH
Florence E Buchan . Humphreys . 17 Feb 1912 . Married . Fish Hawker

The above is correct Florence Humphreys (a married woman on the 1939 later married someone call Buchan. If you look to the left of the entry there is a letter M in blue indicating the change of name was by marriage. Unfortunately the date seems to be given on the line below which is still redacted.

Remember the 1939 National Registration is not a census, the people are not necessarily related, the house may be split into rented rooms, we cannot assume everyone at a particular address is part of the same family.
Cheers
Guy

[Talacharn]

Hi Guy, I find the Register confusing with all the changes. Only accessing it in the library, I copy longhand what I feel is important and miss some of the amendments and their meanings. I am aware of marriages for both sisters, then a second marriage for both, so something must have happened.

The closed records may not be family members, but when there is a child of Florence E, who was listed in 1939 and two others of Violet M before she married Albert Finch, I feel they would be living there. The women were close, and there seems nowhere else where they could live. As for the other children found, I need to look deeper to see if he remarried. In 1939, he may have enlisted, leaving two behind of his children, in addition to the two born before they married.

I will go to the library and look through old newspapers to see if anything is mentioned. If that draws a blank, I will simply accept something happened. There may not be any written evidence and I have not found any deaths, though a deep sea fisherman could be registered anywhere. I looked through a website listing deaths on WW2 memorials.

Agnes Maria was born Davies (1926), but married as a Williams. On the 1939 Register, she is Agnes M Williams. Why the change? In 1928 another child was born to the same mother, with father: /. Something must have changed in the 2 years.

When the birth certificate arrived this morning, only then I found Violet M Williams was the mother of Agnes M, and married to Arthur (H) Davies. Yesterday a certificate told me she was also the mother of Florence Edith Williams (1928). She died in 1931, so not listed on the Register.

Until a question was posed about closed records on the 1939 Register, I had not looked into them. I feel, at least some of the officially closed records, are children of the two sisters. Some may still be alive and living in Carmarthen, or their offspring and know more than I will find through records.

[Talacharn]

Death: Kenneth Buchan
Carmarthen . Jan-Mar 1995 . Birth Date: 1942
Volume: 8181A . Page: A15F

I believe his father is James Kennedy Buchan
b. 1907 . 479/573 . Falkirk (Thanks to Chempat)
And his mother is Florence E Humphreys (Williams)
They married in Carmarthen (1941)

I cannot find anything relating to Kenneth Buchan apart from his death; no birth or marriage. During the war, he could have been born anywhere, but I have looked through the UK with Family Search.

What happened to the marriage regarding Humphreys, I am still trying to establish.
Then what happened, for Kenneth and Florence to be living in Carmarthen at the time of their deaths.

[Talacharn]

Thanks to those who provided support during my search.
I have satisfactory answers for my questions and found much more to conclude this strand of my family tree. Out of respect for those still alive, I will not post further information; this subject can now be closed.

[Goldfinger72]

Hi, I know you’ve closed this thread but this is part of my family tree of which there are many unanswered questions and I also probably have some replies to your questions. So you know, Florence (Florrie) Buchan was my great grandmother. I know nothing of her early years (or of her first husband, my great grandfather).

[Talacharn]

Goldfinger72, as with my last post on this thread, there are many still alive and they cannot be openly discussed. Once you have posted three times, we can then exchange Personal Messages (PM), though this contains most of what I know. With so many twists and turns, my family has been difficult to follow. Florrie was my father’s cousin. I have not followed her children to the present, but Florrie informally adopted some children after her sister died. You say; Florrie’s first husband was your great grandfather. That would be David William Humphreys, known as William. All I know about him is a Royal Navy mention saying he was born in Aberystwyth 10 March 1896. Official Number: J15968. They had one daughter, Martha J Humphreys who married David A Davies. I know there were two sons who both married, but I do not know where you fit.

Added: Ignore the Royal Navy information as it is the wrong David William Humphreys. Looking again, the marriage in 1929 gave an age of 21, so he was born c.1908.