Nilson/Trainer

[liznjohn2011]

Evening all.. Im not sure if this is the best place to put this. I keep going back to the same thought of my fathers middle name Nelson which has came down the line, possibly being a grandmothers maiden name at some point.
The earliest ancestor iv found up to now is a James Nelson Trainer born 1779 died 1782, Berwick-upon-Tweed  (5th G Uncle).
I decided to just search Nelson and Trainer and came across a Scottish 1871 census with Isabella Nilson (mother born 1809ish Ireland) and John Trainer (son, born 1837ish Ireland ) Elizabeth Wylie (head and daughter to Isabella).
My dad always said there was Irish in the family. And this is the 1st time iv came across these 2 names at the same place. I'd appreciate any help in trying to find any connection and hopefully link Nelson and Trainers together 🤞.
Many thanks and sorry for the long post x

[Forfarian]

The earliest ancestor iv found up to now is a James Nelson Trainer born 1779 died 1782, Berwick-upon-Tweed  (5th G Uncle).

Died aged 3?

I believe that Trainer/Traynor and variations is of Irish origin. It is not listed in G F Black's The Surnames of Scotland.

If James Nelson Trainer was your 5th-great-uncle, who was his sibling from whom you are presumably descended?

[CaroleW]

Born 1779 & died 1782 so he was 3yrs old when he died?  Who were his parents and how do they fit with Isabella b 1809 Ireland?

[liznjohn2011]

The JNT who died 3yrs old had a brother William, who's son was another James Nelson Trainer(my 3rd GG).
The JNT 3yrs parents are John and Martha.
I know it will be further back than these people IF any connection.
I was just taken aback by seeing both the Nilson (nelson) and Trainer in the same place.

I don't know how they might connect(  if they do) to Isabella.

I'm probably clutching at straws and should just delete this post

[Forfarian]

The JNT who died 3yrs old had a brother William, who's son was another James Nelson Trainer(my 3rd GG).
The JNT 3yrs parents are John and Martha.
I know it will be further back than these people IF any connection.
I was just taken aback by seeing both the Nilson (nelson) and Trainer in the same place.

I don't know how they might connect(  if they do) to Isabella.

I'm probably clutching at straws and should just delete this post

Yes, I think you are clutching at straws. However it's an interesting question, so I wouldn't delete it.

The problem is that your 5ggf was born (In Berwick-on-Tweed?) about 30 years before this Isabella was born in Ireland. Also you don't know what her maiden name was. It may not have been either Trainer or Nelson.

I see that there is a marriage of Elisabeth Trainer to Benjamin Wylie in Canonbie in 1857. Go to Scotland's People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, invest in a few credits, and use some of them to download the marriage certificate. It will tell you the full names of the couple's parents including their mothers' maiden surnames. Elizabeth Trainer or Wylie died in Canonbie in 1926, aged 88. On the other hand a Benjamin Wylie died in Canonbie in 1926, aged 80, whereas Elizabeth is shown as a widow in the 1893 census

Isabella Nelson, other surname Thomson, died in Canonbie in 1876 aged 64. Her death certificate should tell you the names of her husband and of her parents including her mother's maiden surname.

John Trainer, aged 56, died in Canonbie in 1893. His death certificate should also confirm his parents' names.

[liznjohn2011]

Thanks for having a look.
I think maybe James Trainers death cert might be one to check, as the 1871 census has James being the brother of Elizabeth (head) then Isabella is listed as mother of head.
1861 census has Household Members

Name.. Elizabeth Age 24 (head)
Name..Isabella Nelson Age 50 (mother)
Name.. John Nelson Age 60 (father)
Name.. John Age 3
Name.. Benjamin Age 1
Name.. Alexander Bell Age 7 Mo
Name.. Margaret Frann Age 20 (sister)

I did see the marriage for Elizabeth, iv never used Scotland people before but will have a look at it. Thanks

My train of thought was maybe if I could follow these people back another generation or 2, it might make sense, as in maybe family members interlinking

Liz


 

[Forfarian]

Thanks for having a look.
I think maybe James Trainers death cert might be one to check, as the 1871 census has James being the brother of Elizabeth (head) then Isabella is listed as mother of head.

It take it you mean John, not James.

It would be wiser to get the marriage certificate. For one thing it will give you more information, and for another it will contain information supplied by Elizabeth herself, rather than by an informant who may not have the correct details of John's parents.

I see that Benjamin Wylie and Elizabeth Trainer had John, born 12 September 1857, and Benjamin, born 13 August 1859. Benjamin Wylie, aged 67, died in Canonbie in 1859. He seems rather old to be Elizabeth's husband, but the marriage certificate should clarify that.

1861 census has Household Members

Name.. Elizabeth Age 24 (head)
Name..Isabella Nelson Age 50 (mother)
Name.. John Nelson Age 60 (father)
Name.. John Age 3
Name.. Benjamin Age 1
Name.. Alexander Bell Age 7 Mo
Name.. Margaret Frann Age 20 (sister)

Hmmm. What transcription are you using?

I had some difficulty finding them in the 1861 census index on SP, but did eventually get there, and I used a few credits to take a look at it.
My transcription of the original census record is as follows
Elizabeth Wylie, head, wid, Pauper Ag Lab, born Ireland
JohnWylie, son, 3, born Canonbie
Benjamin Wylie, son, 1, born Canonbie
Alexander Bell, nursing child, 7 months, born Langholm
Margaret Trainer, sister, unmarried, visitor, born Ireland
Isabella Nelson, mother, married, 56, visitor, born Ireland, County Monaghan
John Nelson, father, married, 60, visitor, born Isle of Jersey

Information in the original but not in your transcription above is highlighted in red. If ever there was an example of why transcriptions are not to be trusted, this is it. (The FindMyPast transcription is also defective; it omits Alexander's relationship to Elizabeth, and it omits 'County Monaghan' and 'Isle of Jersey').

FindMyPast also miscalculates the years of birth by subtracting the person's age from the year of the census, suggesting that John Wylie was born in 1858 and Benjamin Wylie in 1860. The year of birth is never recorded in the UK census, and the transcriptions that 'calculate' the year of birth are wrong 3 times out of 4.

I did see the marriage for Elizabeth, iv never used Scotland people before but will have a look at it.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0

My train of thought was maybe if I could follow these people back another generation or 2, it might make sense, as in maybe family members interlinking.

You are quite right, but it's difficult to get much further back than that in Ireland.

I think that you will find that Isabella was born Isabella Thomson, and that she was married twice, first to a Mr Trainer who was the father of Elizabeth, Margaret and John, and then to John Nelson.

[liznjohn2011]

The information I had found was (hopefully this link works, 1861 censes) https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1080&h=544639&ssrc=pt&tid=154960547&pid=152167055170&usePUB=true

Your SP looks transcribed more accurate than the 1 i found on ancestry.

Yes it makes more sense getting the marriage cert of Elizabeth, and I did wonder about her father mentioned as John Nelson, when there were 2 children with Trainer surnames, so yes probably Isabellas 1st husband as a possible Trainer.

Also interesting is Isabella being born County Monahan, as iv been told alot of Trainers came from

[Forfarian]

The information I had found was (hopefully this link works, 1861 censes) https://search.ancestry.co.uk

Ancestry is notorious for the poor quality of its transcriptions. The link does not work because I don't have a subscription so it won't allow me to view it.

Your SP looks transcribed more accurate than the 1 i found on ancestry.

Having transcribed it myself, I will guarantee 100% that it is more accurate than Ancestry's