Sir Malcolm Ramsay and Agetha Ogilvy

[DNAsearcher]

I am researching my Family Tree which includes connections to the Ramsay family; in particular the Ramsays of Auchterhouse in Angus.

Several sources of information points to the husband and wife having the same parents!
Does anyone have information which will confirm or otherwise their parenthood.

Sir Malcolm Ramsay 1325 – 1365 (Hereditary Sheriff of Forfar) married Agathe Ramsay of Auchterhouse (born Ogilvy) 1329 – 1365

They both are reported to have the same parents i.e. Henry Ramsay 1300 – 1341 and Ella Ramsay (born House) 1302 – 1338

Any help in tracking down the correct parentage would be appreciated.

[Forfarian]

I am researching my Family Tree which includes connections to the Ramsay family; in particular the Ramsays of Auchterhouse in Angus.

Several sources of information points to the husband and wife having the same parents!
Does anyone have information which will confirm or otherwise their parenthood.

Sir Malcolm Ramsay 1325 – 1365 (Hereditary Sheriff of Forfar) married Agathe Ramsay of Auchterhouse (born Ogilvy) 1329 – 1365

They both are reported to have the same parents i.e. Henry Ramsay 1300 – 1341 and Ella Ramsay (born House) 1302 – 1338

Any help in tracking down the correct parentage would be appreciated.

The several so-called sources you have found are obviously wrong. They clearly can't both have the same parents, and if Agathe was 'born Ogilvy' she was plainly not Agathe Ramsay to start with.

I would be surprised if there were many primary sources online. To find those you would probably need to visit the National Records of Scotland. Have a look at the online catalogue at https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx

I have to hand a copy of A J Warden's 'Angus or Forfarshire'. Like all books, this is a secondary, not a primary source. In Volume II he says, "It is not known when the hereditary Sheriffship of Angus was conferred upon Ramsay of Auchterhouse, but several members of the family were successively Sheriffs, and the office went with Isabella, the only child of Sir Malcolm, to Sir Walter Ogilvie of Powrie, to whom she was married, and on 31st October 1380 he was temporary Sheriff of Forfar, perhaps owing to the failing health of his father-in-law".  He also says in Volume II that Sir Malcolm Ramsay, Sheriff of Angus, was alive in 1407. In Volume IV he says that Sir Malcolm Ramsay of Auchterhouse died between 1365 and 1379, thereby contradicting what he said in Volume II. He says nothing about the wife of Sir Malcolm Ramsay.

I also have a copy of The Rev Inglis Masson's history of Auchterhouse, but (a) I can't find it and (b) the title is An Angus Parish in the Eighteenth Century so I doubt that it would shed a lot of light on the 14th century. I don't know if it has been digitised online, but you could always have a look for it.

You might find something worth following up at https://www.ancestor.abel.co.uk/Angus/Auchterhouse.html though there are no specific references to Sir Malcolm on that page. 

[DNAsearcher]

The information which provides the erroneous parentage is widespread throughout the Genealogy web sites, which of course does not make it correct. Yes, the information concerning parentage is clearly incorrect but one of the individuals is probably correct.

The names Agathe Ogilvie and Agathe Ramsay appear interchangeable and data is more or less  the same throughout. The Ogilvy connection also appears within the Ramsay data and Margory Ogilvie is Agathe's grandmother.

I will keep trying - thanks for your help.

[Forfarian]

The information which provides the erroneous parentage is widespread throughout the Genealogy web sites, which of course does not make it correct.

Regrettably, there is a lot of disinformation on the worldwide web.

Yes, the information concerning parentage is clearly incorrect but one of the individuals is probably correct.

More likely to be Sir Malcolm's, I would have thought.

The names Agathe Ogilvie and Agathe Ramsay appear interchangeable and data is more or less  the same throughout.

I still wouldn't trust it. I suspect a lack of understanding of the fact that a married woman in Scotland legally retains her maiden surname, and until the 18th century married women are normally referred to by their maiden name, but sometimes as "xxx yyy or zzz" where xxx is their given name, yyy is their given name and zzz is their husband's surname. This form is still used in Scottish legal documents.

The Ogilvy connection also appears within the Ramsay data and Margory Ogilvie is Agathe's grandmother.

I don't doubt that there were plenty of Ogilv*/Ramsay marriages.

As a matter of curiosity, what exactly are these dubious 'sources'? If any of them are in any way correct, they should say where the information came from, so that you can follow it back to a primary source (original contemporary document).

PS I am greatly diverted by one statement online, that "A ram in the sea is said to have been an emblem on the seal of Ramsay Abbey in Huntingdon in the 11th century." As the language of the upper echelons of society in 11th century England was Norman French, the idea that an abbey well inland away from the sea should have an obviously Anglo-Saxon explanation for such a seal strikes me as rather fanciful! G F Black's The Surnames of Scotland says, "The Ramsays are supposed to have come from Huntingdonshire where Ramsey is a local name (Latin de Rameseia)". I speculate that the 'ey' element of the name is probably more likely to be from a Norse word for 'island', and that the abbey was built on an island of firm ground in otherwise wet low-lying land, like Ely not so far away. But I may well be entirely wrong about that.

[DNAsearcher]

As a matter of curiosity, what exactly are these dubious 'sources'? If any of them are in any way correct, they should say where the information came from, so that you can follow it back to a primary source (original contemporary document).

Sites showing the parentage errors are MyHeritage, Ancestry and FamilySearch all of which contain spurious data in this subject (and many, many more I suspect). You are correct - don't trust the internet it is littered with nonsense and conjecture. 

[weesieweasel]

I can't quote sources but my tree shows;
Agathe Ogilvy (1329) m. her cousin Malcolm Ramsey Jnr (1325).
Agatha's parents were Patrick Ogilvy (1281) and Marjory Ramsey (1292)
Marjory's brother was Malcolm Ramsey Snr (1298, m. Ella House).

Marjory and Malcolm's father was Robert Ramsey, b. 1267 (son of Patrick, son of Gilbert)