Probate Record

[KGarrad]

The one I've actually seen had the will in both the English probate and also in the Manx probate.
I would imagine they would need a copy of the will in order to determine the beneficiaries?

Always worth a try

[Forfarian]

Thanks. I don't suppose there's much point in trying at the moment but you never know.

[arthurk]

Based on some research I did, when someone Scottish dies in Scotland but has assets in England, the main event is in Scotland, and as you've pointed out, it's called a Confirmation rather than a Probate.

That is then sent to England, where it is Sealed. In my case I rang the Probate Registry to ask if there would be any useful paperwork in England, and they said no, since it was not much more than a rubber-stamping exercise. (At the time, getting copies in England cost £10; now that it's only £1.50 I might be a bit more tempted to order a copy for completeness.)

More recently I knew of an estate which involved assets in the Isle of Man as well as England. In this case a separate probate had to be obtained in the IOM to cover these, and I believe a copy of the English probate had to be submitted too. I can't remember whether the separate probate would have applied to any such estate, or just because of the nature or value of the IOM assets. The IOM probate office website was quite helpful, though.

[Forfarian]

Based on some research I did, when someone Scottish dies in Scotland but has assets in England, the main event is in Scotland, and as you've pointed out, it's called a Confirmation rather than a Probate.

If the 'assets in England' consist of shares in a company registered in England, it is not now necessary to have the Confirmation sealed in England and Wales.

My grandmother died in 1983, my father in 1994, my mother's cousin in 2011 and my mother in 2012. I was Executor of the last two. All of them owned assets in the form of shares in companies registered in England, and none of the confirmations were sealed in England and Wales.

However the confirmation of my grandfather's estate was sealed in Llandudno in 1944. I am pretty sure he too would have owned shares in companies registered in England, but I have not seen his actual will (hence my question).

So there must have been a change in the rules between 1944 and 1983.

[KGarrad]

I think it depends on the value of the shares/estate?
Not sure I have the paperwork any more, but I'll have a look later.

EDIT: Found it!
(From Capita Asset Services)
Market value less then £20000, then you can apply to use Capita's Small Estates service.
Otherwise, you need to apply for a Grant of Representation and a copy of the (Scottish) Confirmation.

From 2017.

[arthurk]

So there must have been a change in the rules between 1944 and 1983.

Thanks, I hadn't known about that - and I can push the first date on to 1955.

The husband and wife I was researching died in 1948 and 1955, and both appear in the England & Wales index as Sealed. The first of their sons' deaths was in Scotland in 1973, and while I've no idea whether he had assets south of the border, he doesn't seem to be in the E&W index.

[Forfarian]

I have also found a sealing in E&W of the confirmation of someone who died in 1966. However this person's mother was born in Manchester, where her Glasgow-born grandparents lived for a time, so I can't be 100% certain that she did not own property in England and Wales as opposed to shares.

From what KGarrad says, it seems that this Grant of Representation may perhaps have superseded the need for a confirmation to be sealed?

[arthurk]

From what KGarrad says, it seems that this Grant of Representation may perhaps have superseded the need for a confirmation to be sealed?

I think Grant of Representation is a generic term covering both Probate and Administration - see

https://www.courts.im/court-procedures/probate-and-admin-of-estates/probate-introduction/

The following page includes a section relating to those living outside the IOM, though I'm afraid it seemed a bit complicated and I didn't follow it completely:

https://www.courts.im/court-procedures/probate-and-admin-of-estates/making-an-application/

It would seem logical for there to be a simplified process for a low value estate (but I'm not sure if it actually says this is the case).

[KGarrad]

The case I helped with was the other way around
My friend died in the Isle of Man, but had shares left to her by her father; these were of companies registered in England (National Grid and SSE plc).
Both sets of shares were administered by Capita.

Quoting from their information booklet:
The Small Estates service can be used when the total value of the Estate is less then £20000.
Otherwise you will need to send us:
The original Share Certificates, Grant of Probate or Letters of Administration, or Certificate of Confirmation (Scotland).

Fees had to be paid!
£83.50 and £89.00.