Armstrongs - Ballagh, Cashel - Griffiths

[cam12]

Hi - researching from Canada. Would appreciate any input. Attempting to go further back on the Armstrong family tree.

Great grandparents: Simon Armstrong & Margaret Nash married in Kildorrery, Co. Cork 21 Jan. 1873. Based on their long Marriage Certificate, Simon was living in Cashel and working as a shopkeeper at the time of the wedding, and Simon & Margaret returned there, living on Main Street (based on the Civil Birth records of their first 2 children). They left Cashel, and moved to Clonmel, Co. Tipperary, by the time of the birth of their 3rd child in 1879.  Have not been able to locate either a Birth or Baptismal record for Simon, however, based on his Death record, he was born in 1841.

On the Marriage Certificate, Simon's father is "James Armstrong, Farmer". The 1850 Griffith's Valuations shows a James Armstrong in Townland of Ballagh, Union of Cashel - 7 entries - detailing rental of land, barn, office, house & garden, & shared tenancy of a gravel pit. However, there are also 4 entries of a James Armstrong renting out houses. QUESTION: do you think it likely that these are the same person? Or might there have been TWO James Armstrongs in Ballagh?? I was not able to locate in Griffiths any other James Armstrongs who might be farmers in the Cashel area (but I must confess … I do find the Irish geographic, parish, etc. descriptions confusing!!).

I have located a Roots Ireland Death record for James Armstrong of Ballagh, widower, that would be the correct age to be Simon's father, & possibly the person in the Griffith's?? This James died 12 July 1877, age 86 (so born about 1791). The "Address" was Ballagh … but "Parish/District" was described as Kilpatrick.

Also - there was a James Armstrong JUNIOR of Ballagh who at age 25, married a Catherine Brien on 7 Feb. 1865 - father of the groom: "James Armstrong - Farmer".  I think that this might be an older sibling of Simon's.  James JUNIOR & Catherine had 11 children - the 2nd child (Mary baptised 1867) - one of the sponsors was "Simon Armstrong".  I think it likely that this James and Simon were brothers.

I suspect that the James Armstrong SENIOR who died in Ballagh in 1877 was married to a Mary Mara ... although there would have been a significant age difference.  A Mary Armstrong of Ballagh died 16 March 1867 age 50 - wife of J. Armstrong.  The National Library Baptism records show 4 children born in Ballagh to James Armstrong & Mary Mara (Mary 1838, Honora 1840, William 1843, John 1844). There is a Baptism record for a Mary Mara of Ballagh 7 June 1813. This all would translate to a 22 year age difference between Mary Mara & James Armstrong SENIOR (have not been able to locate a marriage record).

The challenge: I think that there is likely a link between the James Armstrong JUNIOR of Ballagh and Simon from Cashel .... but do they tie back to the James Armstrong SENIOR, farmer, described in the 1850 Griffith's Valuation? and is that the James Armstrong who died at age 86 in 1877, was married to Mary Mara, etc.? … or were there TWO different James Armstrongs in the Griffith's?

A note about James JUNIOR (married to Catherine Brien): following him through the 1901 & 1911 Census, and his Death record (18 July 1912), he was most likely born about 1835 ... NOT 1840, as calculated from his marriage record of being age 25 in 1865. This would therefore make him a candidate to be the eldest child of James Armstrong SENIOR & Mary Mara:
James JUNIOR - b: about 1835
Mary - b: 1838
Honora - b: 1840
?? SIMON - b: about 1841
William - b: 1843
John - b: 1844

Sorry this was so long … and hopefully not too confusing! Any comments would be appreciated!  Hope all are keeping safe on your side of the Atlantic!

[merrick7]

The Armstrongs are buried in Clonoulty. Ballagh is in the Catholic and also the Civil Parish of Clonoulty
Clonoulty graveyard.
Erected by James Armstrong / Of Balaugh in memory of / His daughters Mary Arm / strong depd
Janry 6th 1832 aged / 2 yrs And Mary Armstrong / Junior depd Decbr 10th 1840 aged / 1 1/2 yrs
/James Armstrong / Who died 18th July 1912 Aged 80 years / Also his wife Catherine Armstrong /
Who died 25th April 1913 aged 70 years / James Armstrong died 30th April 1943 / His Wife Katie
Died 25th March 1954 / And Their Son J. J. died aged 5 yrs / Catherine Armstrong died Octbr 28th
1969 / May they rest in peace. Amen.

With a name like Simon Armstrong the following Simon maybe an earlier connection

http://www.ottawavalleyirish.com/2013/10/the-mccabe-list.html?fbclid=IwAR0K_hk8MYHywFXyFz7oIDBamV2QUELEs6t9TE_prIaY5X_MwA2qfRZX3og


 "The McCabe List" of 5 February 1829 of 673 men, mostly Irish
Catholic & Protestant who were in the Ottawa Valley in the vicinity of
Bytown that date. Those men provided the information themselves.

(277) Simon ARMSTRONG Has a brother in Law, Thomas Connors with a
family residing in the Town and Parish of Thurles he is known to and
can be recommended by Mr. O'Keefe Tipperary Thurles Thurles

P J

[cam12]

Thank you for this information!!  If I am understanding this memorial stone correctly … it connects James SENIOR of Ballagh (b: abt 1791) and James Junior of Ballagh (b: 1873) ... whose 2nd-born child had Simon Armstrong as a Baptism sponsor.

I am assuming that the "erected by James Armstrong of Balaugh" is James SENIOR  (b: 1791) …"in memory of his daughters Mary Ann/strong depd Janry 6th 1832 aged 2 years ..." who must be the first-born child of James and Mary Mara (I was not aware of this child).

"And Mary Armstrong Junior depd Decbr 10th 1840 aged 1 1/2 yrs" is the Mary that was identified in the Baptism records, born in 1838.  The fact that she is shown as "Junior" says that her mother was also named Mary (and therefore could be Mary Mara).

Given that the next portion of the memorial details James JUNIOR (b: 1832 - died 18 July 1912 at age 80) & his wife Catherine, etc. …. I believe that this links James with his sister, Mary , who died in 1840 … both children of James Armstrong SENIOR & Mary Mara!

Question: is there any indication that James SENIOR (B: 1791 - died 12 July 1877 at age 86) … who erected the monument … is buried there?  Or where his wife Mary is buried? (if I have the correct person - she died 16 March 1867 age 50). Or might they be buried nearby?

I don't have a marriage record for James Armstrong SENIOR & Mary Mara (father: John Mara), so wondered if their grave marker might provide some more information.

Regarding the 1829 reference in The McCabe List to a Simon Armstrong in Thurles.  I had noticed that there was a Simon Armstrong there, who married a Mary Grady, children: John 1812, Edmund 1815, Mary 1817, Margaret 1824. However, after recently finding the long Marriage Certificate on-line for Simon Armstrong & Margaret Nash ... and learning that Simon's father was "James Armstrong, Farmer" I did not pursue the Thurles Armstrongs any further.

Given the birth years of the children, if this Simon Armstrong was 20 when he started having children, he could therefore have been born about 1792 ... which might make him a candidate to be a sibling of James SENIOR.  Thanks for highlighting this.  Perhaps there is a connection, that might take me back even further (and would provide an explanation how MY Simon Armstrong got what appears to be a somewhat unique first name ... if he was the namesake of his paternal uncle).

Your information and geography input is much appreciated!!

[Elwyn Soutter]

The 1850 Griffith's Valuations shows a James Armstrong in Townland of Ballagh, Union of Cashel - 7 entries - detailing rental of land, barn, office, house & garden, & shared tenancy of a gravel pit. However, there are also 4 entries of a James Armstrong renting out houses. QUESTION: do you think it likely that these are the same person? Or might there have been TWO James Armstrongs in Ballagh?? I was not able to locate in Griffiths any other James Armstrongs who might be farmers in the Cashel area (but I must confess … I do find the Irish geographic, parish, etc. descriptions confusing!!).

The James Armstrong references in Ballagh will all be to the same man. Where there are 2 or more people of the same name in the same townland, Griffith’s clerks would distinguish between them. Where it was father & son they’d use snr & jnr, and with others a nickname, called an agnomen. You’ll see several examples of that in the Ballagh records eg Jno Dwyer (carpenter), Wm Ryan (Edmund). In this case the only plot with a house on it was plot 31, so that’s where James lived. The other properties had no residential buildings and so were where he conducted his business.

The properties where he was the lessor are houses that he had sublet to other tenants. Most farmers needed a few labourers to help work the land and so would have cottages that they let.  Rent could be paid in cash but was often paid by an agreed number of days work on the farm each year.

[cam12]

Thank you re: the explanation about the Griffith's information! I feel more confident now regarding the family history that I am working on knowing that there was just one James Armstrong in Ballagh in 1850.