Niven and Chapman same mother Christian Coutts

[loggaman]

I have a John Niven b 1822 married m1847 to Elizabeth Chapman b1826 Durris / Banchory Ternan area they both appear to have the same mother Christian (Christina) Coutts. Elizabeths  mother I know was born in Birse b1802 and never married got the death cert etc. Johns I know from his second marriage was an adultery with a Christian Coutts from Cairnhill his father being Charles Neven no other details on his mother it just says they were never married on his marr cert. As far as I can see Cairnhill and Birse are 30km apart. On Johns marr cert it never mentioned parents just that banns had been read etc. They would technically be brother and sister if it was the same person so it would not be allowed.the Niven is interchangable to Nevin neven nivens .Elizabeth died in 1854 I think cos John remarried in 1855 but no death recorded for her and cant find a death for john. Posted in Aberdeenshire forum as well.
Thanks
Alex

[Forfarian]

As Elizabeth died in 1854, what is your source for the name of her mother?

Whose death certificates have you got?

[loggaman]

As Elizabeth died in 1854, what is your source for the name of her mother?

Whose death certificates have you got?

I have the birth ,death and census certs for C Coutts Elizabeth Chapmans mother. My source for stating this is her mother, was the 1861 census where the children of John Niven jnr and Elizabeth Chapman are with her grandmother Christian Coutts ,her sister who was the head was Margaret Coutts neither of which married. John snr had remarried in 1855 and had another family his status on the marriage form was widower.
Regards
Alex

[Dundee]

You appear to be confused.  John NEVIN is the son of Christian COUTTS.

John NEVIN
Birth Date:    15 Nov 1822
Baptism Date:    20 Nov 1822
Baptism Place:    Durris,Kincardine,Scotland
Father:    Charles NEVIN
Mother:    Christian COUTTS
FHL Film Number:    993312

He married Elizabeth CHAPMAN and two of their children were Christian/Christina born 1849 and William born 1853.  In 1861 these two children are living with Margaret COUTTS who is the head of the household and her sister Christian COUTTS.  All relationships on census records should be to the head of the household and the children are described as sister's grandchildren.  The reason they are Christian's grandchildren is because their father was her son.

Who are John Snr and John Jnr supposed to be?  John NEVIN's father was named Charles.

Debra 

[loggaman]

You appear to be confused.  John NEVIN is the son of Christian COUTTS.

John NEVIN
Birth Date:    15 Nov 1822
Baptism Date:    20 Nov 1822
Baptism Place:    Durris,Kincardine,Scotland
Father:    Charles NEVIN
Mother:    Christian COUTTS
FHL Film Number:    993312

He married Elizabeth CHAPMAN and two of their children were Christian/Christina born 1849 and William born 1853.  In 1861 these two children are living with Margaret COUTTS who is the head of the household and her sister Christian COUTTS.  All relationships on census records should be to the head of the household and the children are described as sister's grandchildren.  The reason they are Christian's grandchildren is because their father was her son.

Who are John Snr and John Jnr supposed to be?  John NEVIN's father was named Charles.

Debra 

Im not confused John is the third child in the family and was a farm servant at 10 yrs old 1861 census ,in my ancestry file I had a Christian Coutts mother of John Niven who had an affair with Charles Neven she came from Cairnhill Aberdeen and a Christina Coutts from birse b 1802 who I had as mother of Elizabeth Chapman this information I got from the birth of an Illegitimate child Margaret Wright b1846 but cant find at the moment hence the reason I made the statements above. Ive since gone over the documents again and find that Cairnhill (1841 Census) is the residence of Christian Coutts and her sister Margaret in Durris which is John Nivens mother which I missed before as it wasnt on the same page. So I guess until I locate Elizabeth Chapmans death cert its back to the drawing board. Thanks

[Forfarian]

You are never going to locate Elizabeth Chapman's death certificate because death certificates did not exist before 1855.

All you really know about Elizabeth or Betty Chapman is that she was born in Durris in about 1825/1826, had a daughter Margaret Wright in 1845/1846, married John Niven/Nivens on 5 December 1817 in Durris and had three more children
Christina born 16 May baptised 31 May 1849 in Durris
John, born 26 February baptised 2 April 1851, Banchory-Ternan
William, born 23 January baptised 26 January 1853, Banchory-Ternan
and died before 31 July 1855, when her widower remarried.

There is only one baptism of an Elizabeth Chapman in Kincardineshire between 1824 and 1826, the daughter of Charles Chapman and Mary Wood, baptised in Fetteresso (the parish in which Stonehaven is situated) in July 1826.

There are two Elizabeth Chapmans in Kincardineshire in the 1841 census. One is the above, living with her parents and siblings in Stonehaven. You can eliminate her. She married Alexander Stephen in Fetteresso in 1850, had eight children, and died in Fetteresso in 1906.

That leaves another who is a 14-year-old servant in the household of Robert Lawson, blacksmith, at Mains of Brotherton in Benholm. There is nothing to show that this is your Elizabeth/Betty, however. There are no Chapmans in Durris, and no others in Benholm.

As others have pointed out above, John and Elizabeth/Betty's children were with their paternal grandmother in the 1851 census.

this information I got from the birth of an Illegitimate child Margaret Wright b 1846

What information did you get from this birth? And given that it isn't on Scotland's People, where did you get it? And what exactly does it tell you?

[loggaman]

this information I got from the birth of an Illegitimate child Margaret Wright b 1846

What information did you get from this birth? And given that it isn't on Scotland's People, where did you get it? And what exactly does it tell you?

Not sure originally I was researching Margaret Wright as John Nivens child because she had an illegitimate child of her own she named  John Niven Wright b 1868. I had so much trouble with the tree between ancestry and rootsmagic duplicating data and people it became a nightmare and I think the confusion came then. When I find it I will post it. On Johns b1822 marriage cert 1855 it states he had 3 living issue and one dead  and I was looking for perhaps a child death that took Elizabeth as well but nothing on scotlands people or ancestry. Thanks Alex

[Forfarian]

On Johns b1822 marriage cert 1855 it states he had 3 living issue and one dead  and I was looking for perhaps a child death that took Elizabeth as well but nothing on scotlands people or ancestry. Thanks

Reasonable logic.

If it's not on SP it is extremely unlikely to be on Anc****y, because Anc****y only has indexes or transcriptions of original documents that are available only on SP.

See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0

[Dundee]

Who were the witnesses when John NEVIN and Elizabeth CHAPMAN married?

Debra