Author Topic: James Smith Parentage (Kilmaurs/Newton-on-Ayr)  (Read 1910 times)

Offline MonicaL

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Re: James Smith Parentage (Kilmaurs/Newton-on-Ayr)
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 27 June 20 22:26 BST (UK) »
I linked earlier the FS link for the birth of a Thomas Smith, with parents John Smith and Janet Craig. I think this is them in 1851:

John Smith 39 labourer b. Galston
Jane Smith 42 b. Loudoun
John Smith 13 b. Galston
Agness Smith 11 b. Dondonald
Jane Smith 6 b. Mauchline
William Smith 2 b. Dalry

Address: Vennal Street, Dalry

I think this John died in 1857, the year after son Thomas was born. From the SP index:

John SMITH
Age 44
Mother's maiden name WALKER
1857
587/ 205
Dalry (Ayr)

So to date, we have at least 3 children for John and Agnes: James, John and Agnes. You would think there would have been an Alexander and a Margaret?  Your James called after maternal grandfather?

Monica
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Offline MonicaL

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Re: James Smith Parentage (Kilmaurs/Newton-on-Ayr)
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 27 June 20 22:27 BST (UK) »

Where did you see that it states John was from England & Agnes was from Ireland on the Marriage record? I can't seem to see that info.

From the censuses. We have them in censuses for 1841-61. Nothing of note to cofirm further details on the marriage parish entry.

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline kjmck

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Re: James Smith Parentage (Kilmaurs/Newton-on-Ayr)
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 27 June 20 22:34 BST (UK) »
Oh sorry, I thought you meant that you had seen that info on a Marriage record for John & Agnes.

I wonder, if John was from England & Agnes from Ireland whether indeed they met in England, or whether John was for some reason in Ireland, perhaps military if there was something going on at the turn of the century that required Military in Ireland.

Indeed that is the death of John Smith in 1857, and his son John Smith was the informant on the record. Stated that John sr. was a Widower so if this Jane in 1851 was his wife, she passed between 1856/57.

Indeed you would have thought that Alexander & Margaret would have been carried on. James Smith & his second wife Sarah Young had a son called Alexander so I did wonder where that came from. Perhaps a brother of James was called Alexander.


Offline MonicaL

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Re: James Smith Parentage (Kilmaurs/Newton-on-Ayr)
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 27 June 20 22:46 BST (UK) »

John Smith died 12th March 1866 aged 88, a surfaceman. Widower of Agnes Walker. His parents are listed as Alexander Smith & Margaret Fitzpatrick or Sedgewick (unsure of this name).


I think mother Margaret's maiden name is closer to Si/edgewick. The start with the S is very similar to the S for Smith on the line above.

Added: Including clip with her name from son John's death reg:



Monica
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Offline MonicaL

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Re: James Smith Parentage (Kilmaurs/Newton-on-Ayr)
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 27 June 20 23:08 BST (UK) »
Just realised, we only had census for John and Agnes for 1851 and 1861. I think this may be them in 1841 www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a141e4df4040b9d6e0769b7/agnes-smith-1841-ayrshire-dundonald-1786-?locale=en

A couple of errors, James should be John and birth places wrong...but everything else would fit with what we have now.

Also, we have a 26 yr old William Daw (Dow) in the household with grandparents in 1861. Mother a Smith? Another sister?

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MonicaL

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Re: James Smith Parentage (Kilmaurs/Newton-on-Ayr)
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 27 June 20 23:12 BST (UK) »
Ignore that 1841 census entry, I think this is them:

John Smith 65 labourer b. England
Agnes Smith 62 b. Ireland
Agnes Smith 19
William Dow 8

Address: Drybridge

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online Forfarian

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Re: James Smith Parentage (Kilmaurs/Newton-on-Ayr)
« Reply #24 on: Saturday 27 June 20 23:43 BST (UK) »
Where did you see that it states John was from England & Agnes was from Ireland on the Marriage record? I can't seem to see that info.
It's in the census, not the marriage record.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: James Smith Parentage (Kilmaurs/Newton-on-Ayr)
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 28 June 20 15:04 BST (UK) »

I wonder, if John was from England & Agnes from Ireland whether indeed they met in England, or whether John was for some reason in Ireland, perhaps military if there was something going on at the turn of the century that required Military in Ireland.


Yes, there was a lot going on in Ireland at the time.
Britain was at war with Revolutionary France, followed by Napoleonic France, 1793-1815, interrupted by an occasional brief truce. British Government feared revolutions in Britain and Ireland during this period. There was unrest in Ireland in 1790s and military repression. Irish revolutionary leaders sought help from France. There were rebellions in Ireland + a French invasion in 1798. The Irish Parliament was abolished at the turn of the century. There was another, abortive attempt at a rising by Robert Emmet.
There were army barracks in towns and cities all over Ireland in 18th & 19th centuries. Many regiments spent time there.
Regiments, both regular and militia, were also sent all over Britain during the French wars. There was a huge mobilisation of men for army, militia and navy for the long war. That may have been another reason for John arriving in Scotland, if he had been a soldier or militiaman.
A small number of wives accompanied regiments on long deployments. As a consequence, babies were born away from home.
Apart from a military reason; Ayr is a port and there were many ports on the west coast of England, trading with each other, with Ireland and with newer, more distant colonies.
Movements of people back & forth between the islands of Ireland and Britain had been happening for millennia. N.E. coast of Ireland to S.W. coast of Scotland is a short crossing. Weavers from Ulster were living in Ayrshire by early 19thC.       
Cowban

Offline kjmck

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Re: James Smith Parentage (Kilmaurs/Newton-on-Ayr)
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 28 June 20 20:05 BST (UK) »
MonicaL - I guess now I will try and find more info about William Dow, to gain his mother's name and add another child for John & Agnes at the same time.

I was intitially dubious that James Smith (1804-1887) was my ancestor, as his first wife Agnes died in 1837 and in 1841 he is living with 3 of his children as a Coal Miner in Dalry with Jean 11, Matthew 9, & James 6. But in 1851 he as changed to a Farmer of 20 Acres in Dalry. Living with his second wife Jane 30, their children Sarah 6, John 4, Agnes 2, William 1Mo. But also Matthew 18, James 16, Thomas 12 - whom would be from James' first marriage so that's when it fit in for me. It was just the change in occupation from Coal Miner to Farmer of 20 acres that threw me.

Maiden Stone - Thanks for that information, it gives a good insight into the possibilities for how John & Agnes may have met and how they came to be in Scotland. Though I think any chances of finding out more information on them prior to Scotland might be a fruitless endeavour. I can't even seem to find a marriage for John's parents Alexander Smith & Margaret Sedgewick.

If Agnes was indeed from Ireland, I am lucky to have her parents names too from that period.

Keelan