Fleming Children of Glasgow mid-1800's

[kjmck]

Hi Everyone,

I am looking for help tracing two Fleming children, siblings of my 3x great grandmother.

They are - John & Agnes (Nancy) Fleming.

1851 living at 45 Shuttle Street, Glasgow.
Surname   Forenames   Relationship   Marital Status   Sex   Age   Occupation   Birth County   Birth Place   Disability   Notes
FLEMING   John   Head   M   M   50   Carter   STI   Dennyloanhead      
FLEMING   Mary   Wife   M   F   44      ANS   Montrose      
FLEMING   Nancy   Dau   U   F   18   Flax Spinner   LKS   Glasgow      
FLEMING   Mary   Dau   U   F   16   Flax Spinner   LKS   Glasgow      
FLEMING   John   Son   U   M   11   Callenderers Apprentice   LKS   Glasgow   

I can't seem to find what happened to John Jr. & Agnes Fleming. Nor can I find any concrete birth record for John Sr. This by far is one of the most mysterious and elusive family lines in my tree!!

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Keelan   

[MonicaL]

Hi Keelan

A possible entry for Agnes in 1861. There is an Agnes born c. 1834 in Glasgow, boarding at 122 Saltmarket, Glasgow. Occupation showing as a cotton spinner which links possibly to 1851 for her.

Not seeing much for John in the area so far for 1861. There are a few other Johns showing with either father John or mother Mary, but they don't look like a possible fit for him.

Monica

[kjmck]

Hi Monica,

Thanks for the info. John Sr. died before his daughter Mary's marriage in 1856. And the mother was called Elizabeth, not Mary. This where the confusion comes in. In 1841, John & Elizabeth are living in Glasgow but no children listed, in 1851 all the family is together, but Elizabeth is now Mary. In 1861 & 1871, Elizabeth is now a widow. There is no marriage record for John Fleming & Elizabeth Osman anywhere that I can find. So I don't know whats going on ha!

I have posted about John & Elizabeth's situation previously so I don't want to confuse things if it's not allowed to discuss them again.

Keelan

[Forfarian]

I have posted about John & Elizabeth's situation previously so I don't want to confuse things if it's not allowed to discuss them again.

Thank you for saying so.

It's always a good idea to include a link to any previous threads about the same family. Then people can easily see what information has already been found.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=821436.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=809111.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=821401.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810937.0

[kjmck]

Thanks Forfarian, I didn't realise I had posted 4 times regarding different members of the family. Apologies for that. I am going to take pen to paper today and really write all of this out about John Fleming, as something doesn't sit right with me, I think theres either illegitimacy, bigamy etc that happened here or all of the above. I'll come back later with my thoughts!

Thanks,
Keelan

[kjmck]

I have posted about John & Elizabeth's situation previously so I don't want to confuse things if it's not allowed to discuss them again.

Thank you for saying so.

It's always a good idea to include a link to any previous threads about the same family. Then people can easily see what information has already been found.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=821436.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=809111.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=821401.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810937.0

Hi everyone,

Posting on this thread as links to any previous  threads on this topic are above if anyone has the time to help.

I have found a marriage record for John Gillon & Agnes Fleming dated 29th October 1863, in Clyde district, Glasgow. Parents of Agnes are listed as John Fleming (Carter/Deceased) & Ann Fleming ms. McPhie. Witnesses were Patrick McEwan & Ann Smith. Address for both spouses was 122 Saltmarket St.
Only information for John Fleming fits as a parent of Agnes. I believed Agnes' mother to be Elizabeth Osman. No idea who Ann McPhie is.

But - Fast forward to 22nd October 1865, and the birth record of John Gillon, son of John & Agnes. The informant was Elizabeth Fleming, Grandmother, 5 Barrells Lane. This information fits for Elizabeth Fleming nee Osman, who in 1861 was a Wash Woman, living at 5 Barrells Lane with her daughter Mary McCormick nee Fleming, & son-in-law Daniel McCormick.

I have thought that perhaps the witness Ann Smith, was Ann Fleming nee McPhie, who just remarried after the death of John Fleming. But I can't find proof of this. Also how could the information for Agnes' mother differ so much in the space of two years? Would Agnes not have given her mother's name on her marriage record?

There were two more children to John & Agnes that I can find, Elizabeth in 1867 (mother transcribed as Ann Fleming) & Patrick in 1871. I can't as of yet find a death record for Agnes Gillon nee Fleming.

I am starting to wonder if there was a whole load of either illegitimacy, bigamy, affairs, lies ... or all of the above to do with John Fleming.

Any help would be welcome for this messy family mystery 

[MonicaL]

Hi Keelan

Battling still into the new year   

What is the last census you have Agnes in?

Remember to check also under the name of Ann (a common variant for Agnes www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=agnes ).

Monica

[MonicaL]

There were two more children to John & Agnes that I can find, Elizabeth in 1867 (mother transcribed as Ann Fleming) & Patrick in 1871. I can't as of yet find a death record for Agnes Gillon nee Fleming.

There looks to also have been a daughter Helen born in the Clyde area on 29 May 1873 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQZS-7BF

Monica

Added: Helen died as todler it seems:

Helen ELEN
Age 2
Mother's maiden name FLEMING
1874
644/5 515
Clyde

[kjmck]

Hi MonicaL

The last census I have Agnes in is 1871 and she is indeed listed as Ann.

Ann Gillan
35
Estimated Birth Year:   abt 1836
Relationship:   Wife
Spouse's name :   John Gillan
Gender:   Female
Where born:   Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Registration District:   Clyde
Civil Parish:   Glasgow St Mary
County:   Lanarkshire
Address:   122 Saltmarket
Name   Age
John Gillan   33
Ann Gillan   35
Elizabeth Gillan   4
Patrick Gillan   2 Mo

Thanks for the extra birth record for Helen!