Ethel Quin

[derekjwatson25]

I must thank everybody for their help. I’m sorry that the daughter hasn’t tried to obtain what has been asked for. I appreciate all the help and maybe we can uncover the mystery of Ethel. The daughter was told that her mum had remarried then left on her own to go to South Africa, which we now know was incorrect. I will keep persuading the daughter  to seek the required birth and marriage certificates and also apply for any adoption records (?)  however Ethel might still be alive (aged 92) so the records for any adoption might not be released. Unfortunately the daughter lives in Spain so she is unable to visit in person at the moment.  Again thanks to everyone for their dedication, help and support.

[CaroleW]

I think the adoption angle would be a total waste of time & effort given the very limited info known.   Where has that suggestion come from? 

Apart from her name & the Land Army record -what info do you have to start an adoption search?  At the moment you don't even know for sure where she was born.

Why is the daughter so reluctant to purchase the Wills birth cert?   

 

[Jamie79]

I'm not trying to start an argument here, although I will admit to feeling a little defensive on Derek's behalf as to the tone of one or two messages directed towards him on this thread. He's clearly just trying to help a friend.

I am a pretty experienced researcher myself as it happens, for whatever that is worth. I fully appreciate that people have made a lot of effort to lend a hand. I just feel sometimes a little more care could be taken in wording and tone of messages which can read as somewhat cold, dismissive or patronising. Wrong of me to assume anyone else might feel that, but it's just my opinion.

I felt this was the case in the manner in which I was privately contacted via ancestry email per my possible ability to help with the case and tried as politely as possible to communicate the fact in a private reply to which I have had no response. Time, energy, can come at a cost. Manners cost nothing.

Best regards.

Good luck, Derek.

You're doing your best and haven't forced anyone to go to any lengths to help you. For my part it was a pleasure to help out in as much as I was able to via my family connection and unearthing of the "emigration to Australia" recollection, sorry I can't provide any documentary evidence. Maybe this one just isn't meant to be, but all the best with it. It'll really be something if you can find out what became of Ethel.

Jamie, nobody here is saying they have been 'forced to go to any lengths to help' Derek, or the daughter of Ethel Quin, who's trying to find out about her mother.

In posting on Rootschat, Derek has asked people here to help him, and that's what we've been trying to do. 

I'm quite clear that finding out about the Wills/MMN Quin birth was an effort to see if we could solve the puzzle.  It was my choice to research a tree to see if any answers would be produced from that, and indeed to offer to share the results, which Derek's not felt the need to take up.

And in helping Derek (and hopefully Ethel's daughter), we have made the most constructive suggestions we can.

I don't count myself among them, but there are very experienced researchers here who give up their time freely to answer queries.  In order to make the best use of time, they will ask relevant questions and also say what research is best to do, and what is not.

We're trying to help, and that is what Derek has asked us to do by posting here.

[CaroleW]

Jamie

As an experienced researcher yourself, it would be interesting to hear your own thoughts on the advice & reasons given for the purchase of the Ethel Wills birth cert (reasons in earlier replies) & also the purchase of the 1959 marriage cert to Charlie Richardson.

Do you think they are necessary?  If not - why not?

There is a Richardson tree on Ancestry & I contacted the owner to ask if he knew what became of Ethel after Charlie Richardson died.   I never mentioned Geoffrey Baird in that message but in his reply he said he had not gone that far in his research & all he knew was she was Ethel Quin who "may have been previously married to a Geoffrey Baird"

Yes - we are all well aware that Derek is trying his best to help Ethel's daughter and any "tone" you sense is perhaps more directed to her than to Derek. 

However - the seeming reluctance on the daughters part to purchase the certs & now the introduction of a "possible adoption" without any shred of proof has caused a lot of frustration in those of us who have tried to help. 

The daughter is now 73yrs old but at the end of the day the decision is hers. 


 

[Jamie79]

Carole,

I am not arguing with any of the suggestions people have made on this thread (nor claiming the information I provided is of any more value for that matter). It is all sound advice and whether or not it has been acted upon is obviously beyond any of our control. If anyone wants to get frustrated that it has not been followed up on, then that is their issue.

My comments were regarding manners. A matter of opinion I suppose. I was somewhat taken aback to be told by you that there is "no birth" for a sister of Geoffrey Baird (I'm fairly sure my grandmother was born, as it happens), while being directed me to this thread and, by implication, requested to offer any information I might have, without once using the vaguest of pleasantries in your communication, even so much as a "please". I replied to you politely about this and you have never acknowledged my reply.

I don't care how much experience as a researcher anyone has, how much knowledge or expertise. There is no excuse for being rude or frosty, particularly when an amateur comes along asking for help.

I am 41 years of age, please feel free to judge me on what possible experience I can offer based on that figure, but in 20 years of genealogical research of my own and others' ancestry, I have generally found the genealogy community a wonderful, inclusive place to share stories and information. That said, I have occasionally encountered individuals who seem to think they own this subject, are somehow superior and can speak to people like ignorant school children.

---

Jamie

As an experienced researcher yourself, it would be interesting to hear your own thoughts on the advice & reasons given for the purchase of the Ethel Wills birth cert (reasons in earlier replies) & also the purchase of the 1959 marriage cert to Charlie Richardson.

Do you think they are necessary?  If not - why not?

There is a Richardson tree on Ancestry & I contacted the owner to ask if he knew what became of Ethel after Charlie Richardson died.   I never mentioned Geoffrey Baird in that message but in his reply he said he had not gone that far in his research & all he knew was she was Ethel Quin who "may have been previously married to a Geoffrey Baird"

Yes - we are all well aware that Derek is trying his best to help Ethel's daughter and any "tone" you sense is perhaps more directed to her than to Derek. 

However - the seeming reluctance on the daughters part to purchase the certs & now the introduction of a "possible adoption" without any shred of proof has caused a lot of frustration in those of us who have tried to help. 

The daughter is now 73yrs old but at the end of the day the decision is hers.

[IgorStrav]

Jamie

Please will you highlight where in this thread Carole told you that there was 'no birth' for your grandmother?  I've read back through, and indeed Carole told you she appreciated your joining and summarised the findings to avoid your having to re-read the whole thread.

I can find nowhere here any lack of manners, indeed you have been welcomed and thanked and you and I had a jovial exchange where you'd not spotted the facility of moving across the photo you'd posted and I told you many people fell into this trap.

And as for your describing respondents here speaking to people 'like ignorant school children', I'm afraid I greatly resent that implication.

This is a wonderful site, and I have received enormous help here, as well as trying as best I can to answer other people's challenges, to sometimes great and often less helpful effect.

I'm happy to leave this enquiry to Derek to try and see if he can get the certificates we need to move forward, from Ethel's daughter.  If not, so be it. 

[Jamie79]

I've read the thread many times, the comment mentioned was not made in the thread, it came in a message via Ancestry.com.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, we can all read different things into the way people communicate online. I'm not on a witch hunt to destroy anyone's character and this is indeed a wonderful site.

---

Jamie

Please will you highlight where in this thread Carole told you that there was 'no birth' for your grandmother?  I've read back through, and indeed Carole told you she appreciated your joining and summarised the findings to avoid your having to re-read the whole thread.

I can find nowhere here any lack of manners, indeed you have been welcomed and thanked and you and I had a jovial exchange where you'd not spotted the facility of moving across the photo you'd posted and I told you many people fell into this trap.

And as for your describing respondents here speaking to people 'like ignorant school children', I'm afraid I greatly resent that implication.

This is a wonderful site, and I have received enormous help here, as well as trying as best I can to answer other people's challenges, to sometimes great and often less helpful effect.

I'm happy to leave this enquiry to Derek to try and see if he can get the certificates we need to move forward, from Ethel's daughter.  If not, so be it.

[CaroleW]

Jamie   -- Just realised I had sent 3 messages to you so have now added the first.  Your reply to my first said you were unaware of the marriage

I am copying in my 3 Ancestry messages to you so all readers of this post can make their own judgement on your allegations

Hi

Re Geoffrey Graham Baird.  Are you aware that he was previously married in 1952 to Ethel Glenister previously Quin?

Cheers
Carole

Hi Jamie

Geoffrey Graham Baird was born 1929 - mothers maiden name Soper.  His parents only married in 1926 and the only Baird/Soper birth apart from Geoffrey is his brother James b 1927.  There is no other birth of a sister.    Was she a full or half sister?

Geoffrey's 1952 marriage cert to Ethel can be found on this topic on Rootschat.  It's a very long topic and has incorrect info re emigration to SA for Ethel & Geoffrey

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=837778.27

Select page 4 and reply 30 to save you time wading through it all

Third message after I found the birth for his sister

Hi Jamie

Found her - freebmd are showing mothers maiden name as Toper so I have sent a correction to freebmd

Cheers
Carole

[IgorStrav]

For those following this thread, I have today received a copy of the Ethel Wills birth certificate.

Ethel Wills, daughter of George Wills and Winifred Quin, born in 1928 in Salford, was a guess at who Ethel Quin, the subject of this thread, might have been.

So the Birth Cert says

Certified Copy of an Entry of Birth
Registration District West Salford
Year 1928

Entry
211
19th January 1928 2 Stott Lane, Salford UD

Ethel
Girl
Father George Wills
Mother Winifred Wills formerly Quin

Occupation of Father:  Labourer in Emery Mills of 111 Robert Hall Street, Salford UD
Informant:  Winifred Wills, Mother of 2 Stott Lane, Salford
Registration date:  25th January 1928
Registrar JH Gibbins

And note far right:  Adopted.  A S Payn, Deputy Superintendent Registrar.


My thoughts are that Ethel's parents seem to have been separated at the time of her birth, and that their baby was adopted. 

There was a further daughter, Agnes Wills (mmn Quin), born October 1929, who we have been unable to find and it is possible that she might also have been adopted - she may not, indeed, have been the child of George Wills.

George Wills and Winifred Quin Wills' first daughter, Winifred, born 1924, is found in 1939 living with the widow of her father's brother, not at the address of her father and stepmother - whilst this is just a snapshot in time, it may have indicated that the family broke up relatively soon after the marriage.


Added:  after posting, it's also just occurred to me that, depending on the date of separation of George Wills and Winifred Quin Wills, Ethel may not have been George's daughter. 

He might have been shown on the certificate as father purely because the couple were still married, and therefore any child born would be assumed to be the husband's child.