Author Topic: Help requested with short note on back of a 1616 Cheshire lease  (Read 522 times)

Offline SiGr

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Help requested with short note on back of a 1616 Cheshire lease
« on: Tuesday 17 November 20 01:44 GMT (UK) »
Hello,
Please could somebody help me with the attached short note on the back of a lease for some land in Newton near Frodsham in Cheshire in 1616 ? It was between Edward Savage and Henry Janion. The latter had at least one son, named Richard, and possibly more.
My less-than-stellar effort is as follows:
1. As [?] to this lease xxx and xx
2. Rounds meadow [?] now in Ric. Janxxx
3. holding and two cowxxxx xx
4. Lox Marsh [?]
5. xxxx
6. Ric Janyon Ric and Raphe his sons
7. xxxx and xxxxxxx as in the back
Lines 5, 6 and 7 are of particular interest.
All suggestions and comments, as always, very much welcome.
Thank you in advance.
Simon
(1) Janions of Cheshire, Lancashire, Hawaii, Vancouver and Seattle.
(2) Gregorys of Tarporley, Cheshire.
(3) Pughs of 'The New Pale' near Frodsham and Delamere in Cheshire.
(4) Nevills of Llanelly, Llangennech and Felinfoel.
(5) Yaldens of Ovington/Lovington in Hampshire.

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Help requested with short note on back of a 1616 Cheshire lease
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 17 November 20 03:31 GMT (UK) »
Ad to this lease two acres in

Round medow now in Ric(hard) Jany(es)

hold
[* see below] & two Cowyat(es) in

Lo(rdshi)p Marsh

Lyves

Ric(hard) Janyn Ric(hard) & Raph his sons

Rent(es) & herriottt(es) as in the booke



* It's possible this is holding but I'm a little sceptical.  It could also be:  ...hold in 8... (presumably years).

If the lease is in the same hand, can you find some g's and (even better) an _ing word or two and post them.

ADDED:

Cowyat(es) could also be Cowgat(es).  It's a further reason to want to see some g's.

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help requested with short note on back of a 1616 Cheshire lease
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 17 November 20 10:34 GMT (UK) »
* It's possible this is holding

I agree.

Cowyat(es) could also be Cowgat(es).  It's a further reason to want to see some g's.

I agree. A cowgate is the right to graze one cow on a piece of common land, and it could be transacted as part of a tenancy agreement.

Offline SiGr

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Re: Help requested with short note on back of a 1616 Cheshire lease
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 17 November 20 20:17 GMT (UK) »
Hi, both
Thank you for your swift and informative comments - both are greatly appreciated.
As requested, I am attaching three more screenshots. Two are of additional annotations on the back. Both seem to be in a different hand. Then I will attach one from the front with several '-ing' words as requested.
ATB
Simon
(1) Janions of Cheshire, Lancashire, Hawaii, Vancouver and Seattle.
(2) Gregorys of Tarporley, Cheshire.
(3) Pughs of 'The New Pale' near Frodsham and Delamere in Cheshire.
(4) Nevills of Llanelly, Llangennech and Felinfoel.
(5) Yaldens of Ovington/Lovington in Hampshire.


Offline SiGr

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Re: Help requested with short note on back of a 1616 Cheshire lease
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 17 November 20 20:18 GMT (UK) »
Here is the second note from the back.
(1) Janions of Cheshire, Lancashire, Hawaii, Vancouver and Seattle.
(2) Gregorys of Tarporley, Cheshire.
(3) Pughs of 'The New Pale' near Frodsham and Delamere in Cheshire.
(4) Nevills of Llanelly, Llangennech and Felinfoel.
(5) Yaldens of Ovington/Lovington in Hampshire.

Offline SiGr

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Re: Help requested with short note on back of a 1616 Cheshire lease
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 17 November 20 20:19 GMT (UK) »
And finally, an extract from the front with several '-ing' words (including two large ones at the bottom which are likely not much use).
Thanks again in advance.
Simon
(1) Janions of Cheshire, Lancashire, Hawaii, Vancouver and Seattle.
(2) Gregorys of Tarporley, Cheshire.
(3) Pughs of 'The New Pale' near Frodsham and Delamere in Cheshire.
(4) Nevills of Llanelly, Llangennech and Felinfoel.
(5) Yaldens of Ovington/Lovington in Hampshire.

Offline SiGr

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Re: Help requested with short note on back of a 1616 Cheshire lease
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 17 November 20 20:33 GMT (UK) »
One last thing.
I have just been going through Dodgson's, 'The Place Names of Cheshire', Part Three and under 'Frodsham Lordship' there appears:
a). "Lordship Marsh" (1651), and
b). "Round Mdw" (1679) and "le Round Mede" (1549).
So, you were spot on !
Simon
(1) Janions of Cheshire, Lancashire, Hawaii, Vancouver and Seattle.
(2) Gregorys of Tarporley, Cheshire.
(3) Pughs of 'The New Pale' near Frodsham and Delamere in Cheshire.
(4) Nevills of Llanelly, Llangennech and Felinfoel.
(5) Yaldens of Ovington/Lovington in Hampshire.

Offline goldie61

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Re: Help requested with short note on back of a 1616 Cheshire lease
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 18 November 20 03:37 GMT (UK) »
Not sure if you wanted an opinion on the names you had underlined and pointed to in red on the first of these new images, but they are:

John Wilkinson
Henry Janion
Richard Wilkinson
There's a contraction mark over 'son' in both John and Richard's names - so possibly 'Wilkinsonne'?

As to comparing the 'g' from your first post, there are 'g's on this last image that are similar to that in question - namely in 'assignes' and 'messuages. The scribe also uses a different 'g' in 'moveing' and 'gardens'.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Help requested with short note on back of a 1616 Cheshire lease
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 18 November 20 06:09 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for posting these extra images, Simon.

I'm not convinced that any of them are the same writer as the original note.  The third is closest, but if it's the same man he has a both a formal and an informal mode of writing.

Nevertheless it is most likely to be holding.  It makes best sense in context.

The other word certainly means Cowgat(es).

I'm not sure whether it's written with a y or a g but that doesn't alter the meaning.  It's common to see gate spelt yate around this time.