How old is an adult for an adult baptism in the Catholic Church?

[shanreagh]

'1851 census lists other children, including a daughter (Catherine?) born in Spain which might indicate Franci served in the Army.'




I have just seen a reference to a Pvte Francis Ammerson born 1795 from Mahara Cross* Fermanagh who joined at  Omagh.....spent 1812 (?)- 1819 posted overseas

* Magheracross ?

[aghadowey]

Things aren't adding up too well here. Did you start with your grandmother Catherine (Harris) Ramage then work back through records?
IF the Catherine Harris who died in 1873 (informant husband John Harris) was CHR's mother and CHR married in Ballykelly in 1870 listing John Harris as her father then Catherine had to leave Preston when Francis died in 1870, take up with John Harris very quickly by daughter's wedding, etc.
Checking a few more records...

IF this is widowed Catherine & children in 1871 census the above makes even less sense-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBNS-G65

[Maiden Stone]

The May 1844 baptism shows father as Francis Emmerson-
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633057#page/22/mode/1up

A Catherine Duffy appears as sponsor for all three baptisms.

Are you sure Mary's sponsor was Catherine Duffy? The nearest I could get to Sponsor 1 was Lally. 

This register may be a transcription of original register(s). A note to one baptism is "Torn away sponsors' names".

I looked at other adult baptisms in those years for comparison but I'm no wiser. See:
26th April 1844 John Devanney, parent Jane Cadman, Sponsor Abraham Doherty. (Unless Abraham belongs to previous baptism.  )
11th June Patrick & William Canning and James Canning who may have been their father or another being baptised. No sponsors.
Same day John McLaughlin, no sponsor. His name is in parent column. At a cursory glance it looks as if James Canning and John McLaughlin were the parents of Patrick & William Canning. 
(There are some 1843 pages in with 1844 so I'm not sure if this is 1843 or 1844.)
See also next double page which is 1843:
8th July Ann McPeak
21st July Eliza Jane Kerr
23rd July Margaret Mulhearn

11th Nov. 1845 Eleanor Boyle

1846:
23rd March Matthew Henderson
14th July Mary Kelly & Sarah Moss, Adults, converts
10th Aug. Elizabeth & Sophia Rolles, adult Protestants
16th Aug. Thomas Miller, adult convert
20th Aug. Jane Doherty
5th Dec. Ann Jane Given

Some of the names are in the parent column. None except John Devenny and possibly William & Patrick Canning have a parent or sponsor named.

If all those baptisms 1843-1846 were by the same priest and if he was consistent when he wrote them up, it's possible that Mary and Wiliam Emmerson and John Devanny were older children or adolescents. That's 2 "ifs". The order of sacraments for Catholics at that time was Baptism, Confirmation, First Confession (?), First Holy Communion. Typical time for the last 3 would have been sometime between later childhood (maybe 10+) to late adolescence or early adulthood. I'm thinking that Mary and William hadn't reached the usual age for Confirmation & First Communion.
I was considered (by my own family) old enough to be a godparent at age 10. 
My supposition for possible ages of Mary and William at baptism don't match info re their ages on 1861 census.
Ancestors of mine in England had their eldest 3 children baptised in C. of E. as babies then got them "done" again at a Catholic church, aged 1, 3 and 5. Baptism register includes date of birth of each child.     

[matthewj64]

They have sponsors Catherine Duffy and Catherine Leal,Liel, Lill.

Fairly sure it is Catherine Lee

M

[shanreagh]

Things aren't adding up too well here. Did you start with your grandmother Catherine (Harris) Ramage then work back through records?
IF the Catherine Harris who died in 1873 (informant husband John Harris) was CHR's mother and CHR married in Ballykelly in 1870 listing John Harris as her father then Catherine had to leave Preston when Francis died in 1870, take up with John Harris very quickly by daughter's wedding, etc.
Checking a few more records...

IF this is widowed Catherine & children in 1871 census the above makes even less sense-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBNS-G65

The Catherine Harris who died 1873 was a Banigan by birth so says family lore. 

I don't think that this Catherine Harris 1803-1873 was one of the children of the Preston Catherine or was the Mother Catherine Emmerson.   

I am trying to get a handle on any Banigans that may have Derry connections. The Banigan Emmerson family seemed to have Derry connections in 1844, at least,  with the baptism of three children at St Columbs. 

Catherine Banigan Harris 1803-73 (My Gt Gt Grandmother) had three children:
Frederick Harris ? not sure where he got to Kentucky?
Linsey Harris married Maryanne Callaghan 1861 died Philadelphia 1880 dau Catherine 'Bamingham' Harris
Catherine Harris later Ramage (My Gt Grandmother) born apx 1844 married Ross Ramage 1870 died NZ  had Daughter Catherine 'Buchan, Buchanan' Ramage (My Grandmother)

[aghadowey]

Catherine (Harris) Ramage born 1844 or thereabouts & 2 brothers also called Harris (one had daughter born c1862 so probably older than Catherine), CHR in Ireland with husband John Harris when she died in 1873.
So how on earth can CHR's mother Catherine be married to Francis Ammerson/Emmerson- baptising several children in Derry in 1844 & appearing in 1851 & 1861 census in England (as well as possible 1871 census entry in Preston)

[shanreagh]

Catherine (Harris) Ramage born 1844 or thereabouts & 2 brothers also called Harris (one had daughter born c1862 so probably older than Catherine), CHR in Ireland with husband John Harris when she died in 1873.
So how on earth can CHR's mother Catherine be married to Francis Ammerson/Emmerson- baptising several children in Derry in 1844 & appearing in 1851 & 1861 census in England (as well as possible 1871 census entry in Preston)

I am not suggesting this. 

My aim with the post was:
 
'I am trying to get a handle on any Banigans that may have Derry connections. The Banigan Emmerson family seemed to have Derry connections in 1844, at least,  with the baptism of three children at St Columbs.'

My thought was that if I could find out if there was a Banigan (from this Emmerson family) link to Derry I could work laterally to go across to the Catherine Banigan our family knows we are linked to and that is Catherine Banigan Harris (1803-1873).   

I said earlier that
'I don't think that this Catherine Harris 1803-1873 was one of the children of the Preston-based  Catherine or was the Mother Catherine Emmerson.'   

PS It was Catherine Banigan Harris who died at Moneyrannel on 1873. She was the mother of Catherine Harris Ramage who died in NZ.  I appreciate the Catherines appearing in each generation is confusing and the name goes down several times in each generation that follows to four generations. 

[Maiden Stone]

Thanks Rosinish.  The register is very clearly marked for the March 1844 baptism that they are adult baptisms and the children are 1 & 7.  I could not see other entries that had been marked in that way.

Where does it say the children were 1 and 7? There were no ages in the baptism register.
I read the figures as 1 (Mary) & 2 (William). The figures weren't ages, they were to link each person baptised to her/his sponsor. The numbers were written again in the sponsor column. 1 next to name of Mary's sponsor, Catherine L.... and 2 next to William's sponsor, Catherine Duffy.
As Catherine Duffy was sponsor to 2 children, William and Ann, she was presumably close to the family. If Ann was baptised when she was a baby and as she had only 1 sponsor instead of the traditional 2, I would guess that either only 1 parent was Catholic or that a relative from only one side of the family or a friend/neighbour of only 1 parent was available to be sponsor. That's several suppositions. Only 1 baptism sponsor is required but 2 are usually chosen.
Have you looked for more baptisms of children of Francis Emmerson & Catherine in that parish or nearby?

[shanreagh]

Sorry for the confusion with ages....i took the apx ages from the 1851 census (and left out an important comma). The point was that they were not babies but nor adults either. 

I will certainly keep looking for Emmersons and Banigans in nearby parishes. 

Thanks for the advice re the numbers of sponsors needed. 

The puzzle re Ann is that she is noted on subsequent censuses as being born in England, or Lancs or Bolton depending on how detailed. 

On the eve of a departure to England perhaps the family is catching up on baptisms and somehow William and Mary were not baptised earlier. Ann is baptised as a babe as she had just been born.
They may have been waiting in Londonderry to catch a ship to England, having come from somewhere else in Ireland? 

I know L'derry was a port for overseas departures but perhaps had departures within Gt Britian as well. 

Many options for further looking. 

Thanks everyone for your advice and critiques.