Pontyberem Pubs

[roycymru]

Thank you Louise, lots of excellent and interesting information. Need some time to digest it all.

[Louise Philp]

As a matter of interest, the Charles Cook who was the licenced Victualler of The Star in 1911 was the father-in-law of John Thomas and Margaret Treharne's great-granddaughter. In the 1871 and 1881 Census records that I posted re John Thomas and Margaret Traherne, they have with them a granddaughter, Martha Anthony. Their daughter, Jane Thomas, married Thomas Anthony and they had three daughters, two dying in infancy. Martha Maria Anthony, the youngest, was the only surviving child when her mother, Jane, died at the Pelican Inn on 30th August 1866. Martha married Thomas Morgan, the Publican of Bridgend Inn in 1888, and they were both still at the Bridgend Inn in 1891:-
1881 Wales Census
Cilcarwfach, Llangendeirne, Carmarthenshire
John Thomas      Head   M   65   Farmer of 28 acres   Carmarthenshire
Margaret Do      Wife   M   75            Do
Martha Anthony   G-Dau      16            Do
1891 Wales Census
Bridgend Public House, Cilcarw, Llangendeirne, Carmarthenshire
Thomas Morgan   Head   M   26   Licenced Victualler   Llanelly, Carm
Martha Do      Wife   M   25            Do
Alice Davies      Serv      10   Domestic Servant   Llannon, Carm
The household was Welsh speaking only.
1901 Wales Census
Rose Villa, The Square, Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire
Thomas Morgans   Head   M   36   Shop Haulier      Llanelly, Carm
Martha M Do      Wife   M   35            Llannon, Carm
Gwyn G Do      Son      9            Llanelly, Carm
Frederick Do      Son      8            Do
John Do         Son      6            Do
1911 Wales Census
Rose Villa, The Square, Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire
Thomas Morgans   Head   M   46   Haulier Pontyberem Co-op Society
                           Llanelly, Carm
Martha Maria Do   Wife   M   45            Do
Gwyn Thomas Do   Son      20   Hitcher (Underground) Colliery
                           Do
Frederick Do      Son      18   Junior Clerk, Metropolitan Bank
                           Do
John Do         Son      16   Drapery Apprentice   Do
Gladys Maria Do   Dau      9   School         Do
Edith Enid Do      Dau      7   Do         Do
Mabel Lilian Do      Dau      3   Do         Do
The couple had been married for 23 years and had had 17 children, 6 still living.
They all spoke both Welsh and English.
1939 England and Wales Register
Rose Villa, The Square, Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire
Martha M Morgan   27 Jan 1865   Household Duties Unpaid   
Mabel L Cook      8 Oct 1908   Do
Clyde R Cook      21 Sep 1928   At School      

Thomas Morgans and Martha Maria Anthony had a daughter, Mabel Lilian, who married Herbert Daniel Cook, the son of Charles Cook who was the Publican of the Star Inn in 1911. You see Mabel and her son Clyde Ronald Cook in the 1939 Census above.

[roycymru]

Thank you for the extra info. Very interesting how the occupants of the public houses are interrelated. Any idea if there is any family relationship between John Thomas of Cilcarw Fach farm and Stephen Evans (1799-1873) of Cilcarw farm? If so, I can add him into my tree!

[Louise Philp]

I'm afraid that I don't have the answer to your question yet. However, there is something else that is intriguing me. You were talking about the David Skym who was at Bank y Berllan. I did wonder if it was significant that he was married to a Margaret Walter. I wasn't sure what association there might be with the Berllan (perhaps you could enlighten me?) as that is where my Walters family have lived for more than 500 years. Now, looking at your tree, I see that the Skyms from Bank y Berllan were buried at Capel Seion - which is where most of my family are also buried. I think that Margaret could possibly be the sister of my 3rd great-grandfather, William Walter. This is my descendancy from William Walter:-
William Walter 1771-1829
3rd great-grandfather
William Walters 1801-1874
Son of William Walter
David Walters 1835-1913
Son of William Walters
John Arthur Thomas Walters 1879-1935
Son of David Walters
William David Fanshawe Walters 1922-1980
Son of John Arthur Thomas Walters
Anne Louise Walters
You are the daughter of William David Fanshawe Walters

[roycymru]

I'm afraid that I don't have the answer to your question yet. However, there is something else that is intriguing me. You were talking about the David Skym who was at Bank y Berllan. I did wonder if it was significant that he was married to a Margaret Walter. I wasn't sure what association there might be with the Berllan (perhaps you could enlighten me?) as that is where my Walters family have lived for more than 500 years. Now, looking at your tree, I see that the Skyms from Bank y Berllan were buried at Capel Seion - which is where most of my family are also buried. I think that Margaret could possibly be the sister of my 3rd great-grandfather, William Walter. This is my descendancy from William Walter:-
William Walter 1771-1829
3rd great-grandfather
William Walters 1801-1874
Son of William Walter
David Walters 1835-1913
Son of William Walters
John Arthur Thomas Walters 1879-1935
Son of David Walters
William David Fanshawe Walters 1922-1980
Son of John Arthur Thomas Walters
Anne Louise Walters
You are the daughter of William David Fanshawe Walters

Afraid no idea what the actual association might be between berllan and banc of berllan. However, the properties are adjacent to each other in the 1841 census, so it does seem entirely plausible that Margaret Walter who married David Skym was the sister of William Walter who lived ‘next door”

[roycymru]

Hi Louise

I see from your tree you have Margaret Skym (nee Walter) dying in 1844. This in incorrect, this Margaret Skym was 0 years old at death

SKYM, MARGARET       0 
GRO Reference: 1844  S Quarter in CARMARTHEN UNION  Volume 26  Page 341

Margaret died sometime before 1824 when David Skym marries his second wife Sarah Williams, it was this pair living at Banc if Berllan in 1841.

I note you have a year of birth for Margaret of 1776. What is this based on? A key point if we are to make the attribution of William and Margaret Walter as brother and sister

[roycymru]

Hi Louise

I think the correct marriage for William Walter (1801-1874) is to Mary George in Llanarthney on 11 Mar 1828, rather than to Mary Jenkins in Kidwelly. A marriage in Llanarthney would make more sense and this is based on what I think is the birth record for their son William.

WALTER, WILLIAM       (GEORGE)
GRO Reference: 1843  M Quarter in CARMARTHEN UNION  Volume 26  Page 500

What do you think? If you are interested in following up you could order William’s Birth certificate which should confirm this.

[Louise Philp]

Hello Roy. Thanks for the correction re Margaret Skym. I have amended my tree. You ask about Margaret's year of birth - it is an estimate based on the year of her marriage and the births of her children. Going back to your previous question about any family relationship between John Thomas of Cilcarw Fach farm and Stephen Evans (1799-1873) of Cilcarw farm - I don't have Stephen Evans in my tree but something that might be interesting to follow up is that the Jane Skym who married John Thomas had a sister, Margaret Skym, who married a Thomas Evans. Neither of these couples were at Cilcarw farm but if you remember I initially attributed John Thomas and Jane Skym as being the parents of John Thomas of Pelican Inn when in fact his marriage to Margaret Treharne gives his father's name as David Thomas. I feel though that there must be a connection between the father David Thomas and the father John Thomas. I say this because John Thomas and Jane Skym had a daughter Mary Thomas who married William Harries and produced children who are related to me while David Thomas was the grandfather of my great-grandmother. There was close contact between those two families as evidenced by my grandfather's diaries. More research needed!
I will now look at Mary George as per your suggestion. I don't have the facility to order birth certificates as I live in Zimbabwe.

[roycymru]

Hi Louise

Lots to follow up on. Birth and death certificates can be ordered on-line as PDFs from the GRO for a cost of £7. You just need to register for free at https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp and then follow the instructions in “Place an Order”. As this process is entirely electronic I would hope it would be global, however, I don’t know the specifics if you try to order from Zimbabwe. Worth a go? If you can’t and are keen to do this PM me and we may be able to work something out.

The GRO is just very useful in general for searches on Births and Deaths, as for births (if registered, as it wasn’t compulsory until the mid 1870s) it gives the maiden name of the mother and for deaths it gives the age of death. You may be already aware of this, but not everyone is.

If not done so already, you can also search for wills your relatives may have written pre 1858 here, https://www.library.wales/discover/library-resources/wills. If they have, the wills are viewable for free at the web site, plus you can order a PDF copy if you want.

Post 1858 you can also search/order wills of relatives here https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate . Again the process is entirely on-line and wills are sent electronically as PDFs at a cost of £1.50 each. The search is probably best done first via somewhere like Ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1904/ then using the details obtained there to order the will via the government site.

This site is also very useful for searching for news of your relatives that may have appeared in newspapers https://newspapers.library.wales/ . It is a bit hit and miss but I have found lots of interesting stuff on my relatives there. The initial search can be restricted by enclosing the search details in quotation marks e.g. “Fred Smith” you can then refine the search further by adding extra criteria in ‘Search within these results” e.g. Pontyberem. Or sometimes it is just easier to put in a surname or place name and see what comes up.


Apologies if you know all this already, but thought it worth a mention